5 ms·

I've had the same experience with caffeine- I am very addicted and without it the withdrawal includes a bad headache, serious fatigue, and not being able to thi

by _yb2s 3y ago

I've had the same experience with caffeine- I am very addicted and without it the withdrawal includes a bad headache, serious fatigue, and not being able to think about much else except wanting caffeine. Yet lots of people have told me with a straight face that I am "wrong" and caffeine is not addictive. Interesting, I also have the same symptoms as you, including insomnia even if I limit coffee to early AM. I think these effects are characteristic of "slow caffeine metabolizers," e.g. people for whom caffeine has an unusually long half life. My hypothesis is that for these people blood caffeine levels stay relatively high 24/7, so the body never gets to adapt to functioning without it, making addiction more likely. It's weird to me that people seem adverse to the idea that peoples bodies and genetics vary, and one persons experience isn't going to be the same as another.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mcpackieh 3y ago
If you want to kick caffeine, I recommend switching to caffeine pills and continue using as many of them as you need to feel normal, then start ramping down the dose. Since pills are discrete it's hard to cheat. When I do this I usually start at 400mg (sometimes 600mg) a day then over the next month ramp down to 100mg a day until finally going to zero. It takes me about a month before I can function normal with no caffeine. ...then a few months later I decide to start again. Oh well. I've done the above about half a dozen times. It's fairly easy to defeat the chemical addiction which I experience as you describe (really awful headaches, fatigue, lack of concentration, etc), but eventually I'll pick it back up to get a little extra edge.
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago
  Something I used to do is make a big pot of coffee and sip on it throughout the day, which was very hard to regulate (and it was also just too much caffeiene). Now I make a single cup of coffee in the aeropress and I use 16 grams of beans which i weigh manually. And I only have one cup of coffee in the morning instead of multiples throughout the day. Point is, weighing beans and using the aeropress helps me keep my dosage consistent so I don't go overboard.
  - depereo 3y ago
    Decaf is pretty good these days; When I don't feel like ditching the actual cups of liquid I swap over. It's certainly what I reach for in the afternoon if I want another coffee for whatever reason. Might be another option if you still enjoy the ritual of coffee making and consumption.
    - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
      Recommended brands? I bought some Blue Bottle decaf and I still didn't like it, but of course there are a lot of variables.
      - depereo 3y ago
        Being in rural New Zealand; I'd be amazed if we had the same product options for decaf.
- gorjusborg 3y ago
  I second that recommendation. I've weaned off caffeine multiple times using that method. Just be careful not to double dose when taking the pills.
  - kerkeslager 3y ago
    It's telling that both people recommending this method have seen it fail multiple times, and are somehow rebranding those failures as successes. Every time you quit again "successfully" was because the previous attempt failed. While I'm not aware of efficacy studies of different methods of quitting caffeine, cold turkey seems most effective for nicotine and a few other stimulants.
    - gorjusborg 3y ago
      The irony isn't lost on me, but we're recommending a method to safely wean off the substance to prevent having withdrawal symptoms, which have prevented me from coming off from caffeine in the past. I wouldn't frame starting up again as a failure. Quitting short vs. long term are two different things.
- jw1224 3y ago
  Perhaps (respectfully) this is not good advice? In my experience a “sense of control” over one’s addiction only serves to keep it alive.
  - projectazorian 3y ago
    If you have demonstrated the ability to quit any time you want, is it an addiction? Or a tool you find useful?
    - cyberax 3y ago
      The technical term is "dependency". Caffeine causes physiological changes, and withdrawal is unpleasant.
  - roywiggins 3y ago
    I've tapered caffeine successfully by measuring out instant coffee. This works pretty well for managing the physical effects of caffeine withdrawal, or at least spreading them out. Basically, I 1) committed to only having the same exact amount of instant coffee, at the same exact times, every day, and then 2) every so often, reduced it a bit. Then I switched to a very moderate amount of decaf (which, yes, has a little bit of caffeine in it, but not enough to cause me problems). I did this because I was getting withdrawal headaches most mornings, which is an unpleasant way to begin the day- I wasn't even drinking that much caffeine!
  - cyberax 3y ago
    Caffeine doesn't have a strong psychological addiction, but it's physiological withdrawal symptoms are bad.
    - xattt 3y ago
      I have not found a drink equivalent to a coffee to drink in the morning. This is my psychologic addition. All these fake coffees (I’m looking at you, chicory root) taste like ash-trays from the grimiest bar in town.
kevinmchugh 3y ago
I'm surprised that people don't know that caffeine is addictive. I'd think most adults have accidentally withdrawn from it at some point. I just tapered over the last two weeks, easier as an iced tea drinker. I measured what I drank one day in grams and then had 10% less the next day, decreasing by the same mass for the next 10 days. No side effects at all and it's there if I want to go back.
- robrtsql 3y ago
  I did the exact same thing you did, except with cold brew concentrate, when I wanted to quit caffeine one time (in preparation for a dental surgery, where I decided I would rather not be taking caffeine while recovering). Would recommend for anyone who is trying to 'kick the habit'.
- RajT88 3y ago
  Some of us, no matter how much coffee we drink, do not feel withdrawal. I have found the only thing with me is not drinking coffee after about 3pm. It can make sleeping harder.
- twelve40 3y ago
  i think it's very individual. I get a lot of caffeine when i need to work through a bunch of stuff (and probably developed tolerance, etc) but when there is a lull at work or a vacation, i feel 0 need for it, don't take it and feel 0 side effects from quitting for a couple of weeks.
- jcpst 3y ago
  Funny story: at my first programming job, there was a coworker that had never had coffee before. Then he tried some and started drinking it everyday. Then he realized “he couldn’t stop” after it was time to start paying the coffee club dues (somehow there was an IT shop without free coffee). It is surprising, but from my experience, there are some people that actually don’t realize it’s addictive.
  - singpolyma3 3y ago
    It's interesting that these anecdotes are all about coffee. You never hear "tried mountain dew once and couldn't stop"
rvnx 3y ago
I have the same issue, and it originally comes from soft-drinks like Cola, and now I have to drink tons of coffee just to not have headaches and withdrawal syndrome. If caffeine was illegal you and I wouldn't have acquired such addiction, so there is a very big + to prohibition; it will prevent future generations to fall into the same trap. Maybe making a law that forbids selling drinks containing caffeine to kids could be a good start.
- kerkeslager 3y ago
  > If caffeine was illegal you and I wouldn't have acquired such addiction, so there is a very big + to prohibition This hypothetical is not in evidence.
  - rvnx 3y ago
    If no caffeine then no addiction to caffeine. You don't get an addiction to a substance that has never been near your body.
    - tomca32 3y ago
      Yeah but legality has nothing to do with that. A whole lot of people put a whole lot of illegal stuff into their bodies every single day
      - rvnx 3y ago
        > Yeah but legality has nothing to do with that. Making a product legal increases its availability, affordability and reach. So, the number of people exposed.
        noarchy 3y ago
        >Making a product legal increases its availability, affordability and reach. So, the number of people exposed. Really, a prohibition argument made with a straight face? North American governments famously failed to maintain a ban on alcohol. How well do you think they'd fare with trying to ban sales of caffeine, given it's reach is greater (and far more socially-accepted) than alcohol?
crazygringo 3y ago
I don't think it's common to claim there's no such thing as caffeine withdrawal -- that's extremely well known and documented. The headaches and fatigue from going cold turkey are the worst. But at the same time there's valid debate over whether that should be classified as an addiction rather than a mere normal dependence. Because for most people, it's relatively simple to taper down their caffeine intake by e.g. 10% per day and end it after a month and they're fine. They don't find that psychologically difficult, they don't need to go to rehab, they're just slightly tired and maybe intermittent slight headaches during the process. That's all -- which is why it's generally much better than cold turkey. Addiction is often associated with something that normal willpower has no control over, that adversely affects your life. That's not generally the case for caffeine. Everyone I know who has wanted to stop drinking coffee has managed it when they decided to. Which is not the case with things widely understood to be addictive in some people, e.g. alcohol, tobbacco, heroin. So there's an important distinction here that I don't think we want to erase. Dependency != addiction.
- istjohn 3y ago
  The DSM-5 does not use the terms dependence or addiction as standalone diagnostic categories. It unifies them under the concept of "substance use disorders," describing a spectrum of use and classifying severity based on the number of symptoms present.
- singpolyma3 3y ago
  I've always heard "caffeine withdrawal" explained as symptoms of dehydration from people who drank mostly coffee, go cold turkey, and do not replace with water.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    I don't know who's been telling you that, but no, that is false. The main cause of headaches in caffeine withdrawal is believed to be the fact that caffeine affects the blood vessels in your brain, and that cutting out caffeine therefore changes blood flow, and your body takes a few days to readjust to that. Water is irrelevant here. Which is easily demonstrated by the fact that caffeine withdrawal is the same whether you've been drinking large, hydrating American-style coffees, or tiny Italian espressos, or been taking caffeine pills without water at all.
jcpst 3y ago
Great podcast from Huberman Lab covering a lot of science around caffeine use. https://hubermanlab.com/using-caffeine-to-optimize-mental-and-physical-performance/ https://hubermanlab.com/using-caffeine-to-optimize-mental-an... A few takeaways: * stopping caffeine ingestion 8-12 hours before you plan to sleep is beneficial to your sleep. Even for people who can drink coffee late in the day and still go to sleep. * delaying the first dose 90 minutes after waking up can help mitigate the “afternoon slump” many people experience.

by _yb2s 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mcpackieh 3y ago

If you want to kick caffeine, I recommend switching to caffeine pills and continue using as many of them as you need to feel normal, then start ramping down the dose. Since pills are discrete it's hard to cheat. When I do this I usually start at 400mg (sometimes 600mg) a day then over the next month ramp down to 100mg a day until finally going to zero. It takes me about a month before I can function normal with no caffeine. ...then a few months later I decide to start again. Oh well. I've done the above about half a dozen times. It's fairly easy to defeat the chemical addiction which I experience as you describe (really awful headaches, fatigue, lack of concentration, etc), but eventually I'll pick it back up to get a little extra edge.

TaylorAlexander 3y ago
Something I used to do is make a big pot of coffee and sip on it throughout the day, which was very hard to regulate (and it was also just too much caffeiene). Now I make a single cup of coffee in the aeropress and I use 16 grams of beans which i weigh manually. And I only have one cup of coffee in the morning instead of multiples throughout the day. Point is, weighing beans and using the aeropress helps me keep my dosage consistent so I don't go overboard.
- depereo 3y ago
  Decaf is pretty good these days; When I don't feel like ditching the actual cups of liquid I swap over. It's certainly what I reach for in the afternoon if I want another coffee for whatever reason. Might be another option if you still enjoy the ritual of coffee making and consumption.
  - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
    Recommended brands? I bought some Blue Bottle decaf and I still didn't like it, but of course there are a lot of variables.
    - depereo 3y ago
      Being in rural New Zealand; I'd be amazed if we had the same product options for decaf.
gorjusborg 3y ago
I second that recommendation. I've weaned off caffeine multiple times using that method. Just be careful not to double dose when taking the pills.
- kerkeslager 3y ago
  It's telling that both people recommending this method have seen it fail multiple times, and are somehow rebranding those failures as successes. Every time you quit again "successfully" was because the previous attempt failed. While I'm not aware of efficacy studies of different methods of quitting caffeine, cold turkey seems most effective for nicotine and a few other stimulants.
  - gorjusborg 3y ago
    The irony isn't lost on me, but we're recommending a method to safely wean off the substance to prevent having withdrawal symptoms, which have prevented me from coming off from caffeine in the past. I wouldn't frame starting up again as a failure. Quitting short vs. long term are two different things.
jw1224 3y ago
Perhaps (respectfully) this is not good advice? In my experience a “sense of control” over one’s addiction only serves to keep it alive.
- projectazorian 3y ago
  If you have demonstrated the ability to quit any time you want, is it an addiction? Or a tool you find useful?
  - cyberax 3y ago
    The technical term is "dependency". Caffeine causes physiological changes, and withdrawal is unpleasant.
- roywiggins 3y ago
  I've tapered caffeine successfully by measuring out instant coffee. This works pretty well for managing the physical effects of caffeine withdrawal, or at least spreading them out. Basically, I 1) committed to only having the same exact amount of instant coffee, at the same exact times, every day, and then 2) every so often, reduced it a bit. Then I switched to a very moderate amount of decaf (which, yes, has a little bit of caffeine in it, but not enough to cause me problems). I did this because I was getting withdrawal headaches most mornings, which is an unpleasant way to begin the day- I wasn't even drinking that much caffeine!
- cyberax 3y ago
  Caffeine doesn't have a strong psychological addiction, but it's physiological withdrawal symptoms are bad.
  - xattt 3y ago
    I have not found a drink equivalent to a coffee to drink in the morning. This is my psychologic addition. All these fake coffees (I’m looking at you, chicory root) taste like ash-trays from the grimiest bar in town.

kevinmchugh 3y ago

I'm surprised that people don't know that caffeine is addictive. I'd think most adults have accidentally withdrawn from it at some point. I just tapered over the last two weeks, easier as an iced tea drinker. I measured what I drank one day in grams and then had 10% less the next day, decreasing by the same mass for the next 10 days. No side effects at all and it's there if I want to go back.

robrtsql 3y ago
I did the exact same thing you did, except with cold brew concentrate, when I wanted to quit caffeine one time (in preparation for a dental surgery, where I decided I would rather not be taking caffeine while recovering). Would recommend for anyone who is trying to 'kick the habit'.
RajT88 3y ago
Some of us, no matter how much coffee we drink, do not feel withdrawal. I have found the only thing with me is not drinking coffee after about 3pm. It can make sleeping harder.
twelve40 3y ago
i think it's very individual. I get a lot of caffeine when i need to work through a bunch of stuff (and probably developed tolerance, etc) but when there is a lull at work or a vacation, i feel 0 need for it, don't take it and feel 0 side effects from quitting for a couple of weeks.
jcpst 3y ago
Funny story: at my first programming job, there was a coworker that had never had coffee before. Then he tried some and started drinking it everyday. Then he realized “he couldn’t stop” after it was time to start paying the coffee club dues (somehow there was an IT shop without free coffee). It is surprising, but from my experience, there are some people that actually don’t realize it’s addictive.
- singpolyma3 3y ago
  It's interesting that these anecdotes are all about coffee. You never hear "tried mountain dew once and couldn't stop"

rvnx 3y ago

I have the same issue, and it originally comes from soft-drinks like Cola, and now I have to drink tons of coffee just to not have headaches and withdrawal syndrome. If caffeine was illegal you and I wouldn't have acquired such addiction, so there is a very big + to prohibition; it will prevent future generations to fall into the same trap. Maybe making a law that forbids selling drinks containing caffeine to kids could be a good start.

kerkeslager 3y ago
> If caffeine was illegal you and I wouldn't have acquired such addiction, so there is a very big + to prohibition This hypothetical is not in evidence.
- rvnx 3y ago
  If no caffeine then no addiction to caffeine. You don't get an addiction to a substance that has never been near your body.
  - tomca32 3y ago
    Yeah but legality has nothing to do with that. A whole lot of people put a whole lot of illegal stuff into their bodies every single day
    - rvnx 3y ago
      > Yeah but legality has nothing to do with that. Making a product legal increases its availability, affordability and reach. So, the number of people exposed.
      - noarchy 3y ago
        >Making a product legal increases its availability, affordability and reach. So, the number of people exposed. Really, a prohibition argument made with a straight face? North American governments famously failed to maintain a ban on alcohol. How well do you think they'd fare with trying to ban sales of caffeine, given it's reach is greater (and far more socially-accepted) than alcohol?

crazygringo 3y ago

I don't think it's common to claim there's no such thing as caffeine withdrawal -- that's extremely well known and documented. The headaches and fatigue from going cold turkey are the worst. But at the same time there's valid debate over whether that should be classified as an addiction rather than a mere normal dependence. Because for most people, it's relatively simple to taper down their caffeine intake by e.g. 10% per day and end it after a month and they're fine. They don't find that psychologically difficult, they don't need to go to rehab, they're just slightly tired and maybe intermittent slight headaches during the process. That's all -- which is why it's generally much better than cold turkey. Addiction is often associated with something that normal willpower has no control over, that adversely affects your life. That's not generally the case for caffeine. Everyone I know who has wanted to stop drinking coffee has managed it when they decided to. Which is not the case with things widely understood to be addictive in some people, e.g. alcohol, tobbacco, heroin. So there's an important distinction here that I don't think we want to erase. Dependency != addiction.

istjohn 3y ago
The DSM-5 does not use the terms dependence or addiction as standalone diagnostic categories. It unifies them under the concept of "substance use disorders," describing a spectrum of use and classifying severity based on the number of symptoms present.
singpolyma3 3y ago
I've always heard "caffeine withdrawal" explained as symptoms of dehydration from people who drank mostly coffee, go cold turkey, and do not replace with water.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  I don't know who's been telling you that, but no, that is false. The main cause of headaches in caffeine withdrawal is believed to be the fact that caffeine affects the blood vessels in your brain, and that cutting out caffeine therefore changes blood flow, and your body takes a few days to readjust to that. Water is irrelevant here. Which is easily demonstrated by the fact that caffeine withdrawal is the same whether you've been drinking large, hydrating American-style coffees, or tiny Italian espressos, or been taking caffeine pills without water at all.

jcpst 3y ago

Great podcast from Huberman Lab covering a lot of science around caffeine use. https://hubermanlab.com/using-caffeine-to-optimize-mental-and-physical-performance/ https://hubermanlab.com/using-caffeine-to-optimize-mental-an... A few takeaways: * stopping caffeine ingestion 8-12 hours before you plan to sleep is beneficial to your sleep. Even for people who can drink coffee late in the day and still go to sleep. * delaying the first dose 90 minutes after waking up can help mitigate the “afternoon slump” many people experience.