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> There were places that were great ideas for planting — west sides of pathways to help block the blazing afternoon Phoenix sun. It's interesting that you miss

> There were places that were great ideas for planting — west sides of pathways to help block the blazing afternoon Phoenix sun. It's interesting that you miss the forest for the trees here. There really are no trees that are "great" for where you live, because without human intervention like what you described, there really are no trees that sustain themselves in the Lower Sonoran area. It is essentially a desert. So the long term solution is really just slowly depopulating the Phoenix area or having landscapes that are appropriate for a desert, and planting trees where water isn't so scarce as to be unsustainable without human babysitting. > And yet, there places they planted too close to existing trees, where they won’t even get sun (plants compete for sunlight, not root space) Competing for sun isn't really a thing in a desert, because canopies in that landscape are a liability rather than an advantage. They contribute to water loss, which is extremely scarce. If anything, having partial shade is good protection for young trees, which are more susceptible to variations in drought and heat.

hosh 3y ago
> There really are no trees that are "great" for where you live, because without human intervention like what you described, there really are no trees that sustain themselves in the Lower Sonoran area. It is essentially a desert. The Lower Sonoron us actually a steppe biome. There are plenty of native trees and shrubs that thrive all on its own with the given rainfall. People see "desert" and picture wastelands like the Sahara or the Gobi. Many people who never been to the area are surprised at how lush both the lower and upper Sonoran are. As far as human intervention goes, there is a nuance here: there is a big difference between acting upon the world as apart from the ecosystem, and acting within the world as part of the ecosystem. My neighbor's Pakistani white mulberry is very well suited for growing here in the Sonoron, with some help. Jujube trees (one of the buckthorne family) is very well suited here. So are moringas, with people growing dense, backyard moringa groves here in Phoenix. There are people who figured out how to grow the classic fruit-bearing trees here. Using dwarf varieties, careful pruning, use of deep mulch basins, chop-and-drop, companion planting, they can do very well here without having to rely on flood irrigation. > Competing for sun isn't really a thing in a desert, because canopies in that landscape are a liability rather than an advantage. They contribute to water loss, which is extremely scarce. In the park environment I am talking about, despite it being in the Sonoran, it is actually designed like a park you would see in temperate biomes. That means the overstory trees there are large ponderosa pines (which has high water requirements for the area, so they flood irrigate the park during the summer). The tree I was talking about in that park s going to be starved for sunlight is surrounded by the shadows of several of the overstory trees > If anything, having partial shade is good protection for young trees, which are more susceptible to variations in drought and heat. That's partially correct. There are other ways to work with this. For example, the people who sold my black mission fig to me told me that it doesn't shade itself. Well, it does shade itself, as long as you don't trim the lower branches that forces you to then put the white reflective paint on its trunks. In the Sonoran, the mesquites and the ironwood act as nursery trees, providing partial shade to support a variety of plants. The Suguoro cactus, for example, requires a nursery tree to help it along when it is young. Then it kills off the nursery tree when it gets mature enough. Ironwood, despite growing extremely slowly, because it acts as a nursery tree for a variety of plants, is a keystone species.
AlotOfReading 3y ago
There are still trees native to the Sonoran though? Palo Verde, desert ironwood, acacia, palms, and the not strictly native but highly adapted mesquite. You'll see these trees planted all over the metro and if you visit someplace like Granite Reef, you'll find entire natural groves of them creating dense shade even in the hottest months. The key to this is obviously water, but far less than you'd need for stands of other tree species (and it can be deeper).
- hosh 3y ago
  Swales, basins, and bearms help with water management. I see a lot of that in the greenways in and around Phoenix. Just not at my neighborhood park. There's a botanical garden an hour out of Phoenix metro that showcases edible Sonoran plants, as well as arid-adapted plants from around the world. The native species do fine on raw, undeveloped lands. I think it's because people confuse "desert" (or arid) with "wasteland". And there are methods to remediate wastelands -- it just takes effort and time.
  - AlotOfReading 3y ago
    It certainly doesn't help that specific directions from Phoenix traveled by major highways are fairly desolate. The Gila river valley as you drive south to Tucson is mostly salt flats for the first half hour, while heading north on the 17 goes through old lava fields and the waterless Agua Fria plateau.
    - hosh 3y ago
      I haven't travelled to Tuscon yet so I don't know, though I know there are some large preserves outside of Tuscon. I'm not sure what you mean by the waterless Agua Fria plateau. I make a lot trips between Phoenix and northern cities like Prescott, Sedona, and Flagstaff. At no point among them do I see areas that are truly waterless. A lava field would be a sight to behold, but I don't recall any such thing along I-17 north. During the years with there are more winter rains, the plateau one reaches right around Sunset Point makes for an amazing grassland. That's even knowing that, with as green and lush as it is that season, it will mean fire and devastation later in the drier parts of the year. During the monsoon rains, those high grassland turn into magnificent landscape with ponding, reflecting the stormy clouds in the sky, across a wide horizon.

hosh 3y ago

> There really are no trees that are "great" for where you live, because without human intervention like what you described, there really are no trees that sustain themselves in the Lower Sonoran area. It is essentially a desert. The Lower Sonoron us actually a steppe biome. There are plenty of native trees and shrubs that thrive all on its own with the given rainfall. People see "desert" and picture wastelands like the Sahara or the Gobi. Many people who never been to the area are surprised at how lush both the lower and upper Sonoran are. As far as human intervention goes, there is a nuance here: there is a big difference between acting upon the world as apart from the ecosystem, and acting within the world as part of the ecosystem. My neighbor's Pakistani white mulberry is very well suited for growing here in the Sonoron, with some help. Jujube trees (one of the buckthorne family) is very well suited here. So are moringas, with people growing dense, backyard moringa groves here in Phoenix. There are people who figured out how to grow the classic fruit-bearing trees here. Using dwarf varieties, careful pruning, use of deep mulch basins, chop-and-drop, companion planting, they can do very well here without having to rely on flood irrigation. > Competing for sun isn't really a thing in a desert, because canopies in that landscape are a liability rather than an advantage. They contribute to water loss, which is extremely scarce. In the park environment I am talking about, despite it being in the Sonoran, it is actually designed like a park you would see in temperate biomes. That means the overstory trees there are large ponderosa pines (which has high water requirements for the area, so they flood irrigate the park during the summer). The tree I was talking about in that park s going to be starved for sunlight is surrounded by the shadows of several of the overstory trees > If anything, having partial shade is good protection for young trees, which are more susceptible to variations in drought and heat. That's partially correct. There are other ways to work with this. For example, the people who sold my black mission fig to me told me that it doesn't shade itself. Well, it does shade itself, as long as you don't trim the lower branches that forces you to then put the white reflective paint on its trunks. In the Sonoran, the mesquites and the ironwood act as nursery trees, providing partial shade to support a variety of plants. The Suguoro cactus, for example, requires a nursery tree to help it along when it is young. Then it kills off the nursery tree when it gets mature enough. Ironwood, despite growing extremely slowly, because it acts as a nursery tree for a variety of plants, is a keystone species.

AlotOfReading 3y ago

There are still trees native to the Sonoran though? Palo Verde, desert ironwood, acacia, palms, and the not strictly native but highly adapted mesquite. You'll see these trees planted all over the metro and if you visit someplace like Granite Reef, you'll find entire natural groves of them creating dense shade even in the hottest months. The key to this is obviously water, but far less than you'd need for stands of other tree species (and it can be deeper).

hosh 3y ago
Swales, basins, and bearms help with water management. I see a lot of that in the greenways in and around Phoenix. Just not at my neighborhood park. There's a botanical garden an hour out of Phoenix metro that showcases edible Sonoran plants, as well as arid-adapted plants from around the world. The native species do fine on raw, undeveloped lands. I think it's because people confuse "desert" (or arid) with "wasteland". And there are methods to remediate wastelands -- it just takes effort and time.
- AlotOfReading 3y ago
  It certainly doesn't help that specific directions from Phoenix traveled by major highways are fairly desolate. The Gila river valley as you drive south to Tucson is mostly salt flats for the first half hour, while heading north on the 17 goes through old lava fields and the waterless Agua Fria plateau.
  - hosh 3y ago
    I haven't travelled to Tuscon yet so I don't know, though I know there are some large preserves outside of Tuscon. I'm not sure what you mean by the waterless Agua Fria plateau. I make a lot trips between Phoenix and northern cities like Prescott, Sedona, and Flagstaff. At no point among them do I see areas that are truly waterless. A lava field would be a sight to behold, but I don't recall any such thing along I-17 north. During the years with there are more winter rains, the plateau one reaches right around Sunset Point makes for an amazing grassland. That's even knowing that, with as green and lush as it is that season, it will mean fire and devastation later in the drier parts of the year. During the monsoon rains, those high grassland turn into magnificent landscape with ponding, reflecting the stormy clouds in the sky, across a wide horizon.