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> Only to those without a firm grasp on the laws of thermodynamics. You are the one completely confused by the laws of thermodynamics. A hydrogen fuel cell is
by _hypx 3y ago
> Only to those without a firm grasp on the laws of thermodynamics.
You are the one completely confused by the laws of thermodynamics.
A hydrogen fuel cell is an electrochemical system. So are electrolyzers. They represent the equivalence of charging and discharging a battery. There is no fundamental reason why this must be less efficient. You can potentially reach 100% efficiency at least in theory.
What people really are saying is that “in practice,” it is less efficient than a battery setup. But this is also mostly made-up and filled with exaggeration. Electrolyzers are reaching 98% efficiency. Fuel cells, at least in large installations, can already reach 85% efficiency or battery (assuming heat recapture).
In short, it is already pretty close to what batteries can do. Future advancements will eliminate the efficiency gap almost entirely.
Furthermore, it is actually more efficient to store and move around hydrogen than it is with electricity. Energy storage at scale is very difficult, and enough of a problem that we are looking at using hydrogen for long-duration energy storage. That alone basically kills the argument that batteries have any advantages in this respect.
Finally, as the economics of hydrogen production scale up, we can expect cost to approach zero. That’s because it is very much like wind and solar: We’re using a basically free resource (wind, sunlight and water) and turning it into a fuel. People criticized the efficiency of photovoltaics in the past, but the fundamental advantage of not having to pay for fuel means that costs can drop to nearly zero, and it did. This is the same story again. Except nearly free green hydrogen in the long-run.
- _aavaa_ 3y ago> Fuel cells, at least in large installations, can already reach 85% efficiency or battery (assuming heat recapture). Heat recapture is great, but we care about electricity output. > Finally, as the economics of hydrogen production scale up, we can expect cost to approach zero. That’s because it is very much like wind and solar: We’re using a basically free resource It will never reach zero because the equipment, transportation, and people involved are not free. Further solar panels and wind turbines got cheaper due to learning effects. These effects are not present for over half of the things involved in a hydrogen fuel system. Pumps and tanks and valves and pipes are already mass produced. And while the sunlight might be free, the electricity from it is now, and never will be since the equipment isn’t free.
- _hypx 3y agoWe do not always need electricity as an output. Even then, you can combine SOFCs with gas turbines and still get an electrical output. Efficiency is still very high. The equipment is mostly made out of steel or other cheap materials. You read about using fiberglass or HDPE for a lot of the components. Those aren’t expensive materials. Certainly, way cheaper than what batteries use. Transportation is via pipelines which is 10x cheaper than wires. The costs of infrastructure should be very cheap. > Further solar panels and wind turbines got cheaper due to learning effects. These effects are not present for over half of the things involved in a hydrogen fuel system. Pumps and tanks and valves and pipes are already mass produced. Solar panels and wind turbines are over a century old. Hell, wind power existed for millenia in form or another. But as it turns out, it still benefits from the learning effect. So you’re just spouting more of your anti-progress agenda here.
- _aavaa_ 3y ago> So you’re just spouting more of your anti-progress agenda here. And with that, I'm leaving this conversation and letting anyone else reading to clearly see that pro-hydrogen zealots are alive and well, despite the astonishment of one of the top-level comments.
- _hypx 3y agoYour own posting history suggests a BEV fanatic. And the fact you keep on bringing up biofuels show how unserious you are about the topic.