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>* Consumers who care more about convenience and cost above all else, and reliability basically not at all Don't blame the consumer for this. It's just The Mar

>* Consumers who care more about convenience and cost above all else, and reliability basically not at all Don't blame the consumer for this. It's just The Market For Lemons at work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons If you really need someone to blame, then blame the MBAs who buy up quality brands and then sell junk until the reputation is all ground up.

jdminhbg 3y ago
> It's just The Market For Lemons at work. It's not, really. Information about brand reliability is widely available. People just value different things.
- beardbound 3y ago
  I agree that people value different things but I wouldn’t say information about brand reliability is widely available. I have a consumer reports membership for checking that kind of thing simply because all of the info out there is mostly blogspam and fake review sites. Information from reputable sources on large appliance purchases is incredibly hard to find since most people don’t buy appliances often, so even consumers used to doing online research will be hard pressed to know which sites to trust. I know that I wouldn’t have a clue. If there is a place besides consumer reports, which is a paid service, where you can. Heck these things I would be very interested in hearing about it.
  - sharemywin 3y ago
    how would a site like this even get paid? from appliance company commissions?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Information about brand reliability is widely available. Information that you can trust, however, is harder to find.
- coryfklein 3y ago
  > Information about brand reliability is widely available I too see this information everywhere but I have no idea what to trust on this anymore and what information is paid for and gamed by the companies themselves. Brand reputation is its own business these days with its own products and markets.
  - sharemywin 3y ago
    exactly. everything is corruptible anymore.
  - Qwertious 3y ago
    >Brand reputation is its own business these days with its own products and markets. I'm halfway convinced that selling a brand is just sort of illegitimate - a brand is just a reputation (ie. built-up trust), and selling out your reputation for money on your way out the door is cleanly, obviously immoral. I'm sure there are arguments for it (like "well surely my son can inherit the family business" and "well surely I can sell the business to someone who I trust to maintain reputation"), but overall those arguments don't change what actually happens: the business is sold to someone who wants the profit from abusing the trust that's been built up.
- potta_coffee 3y ago
  Shopping for appliances recently, I found that ALL available brands are pretty shit as far as reliability goes. It's basically a gamble. I've learned to avoid Samsung though because the circuit boards in them cannot be had for any amount of money and so the appliances are essentially not repairable.
- astrostl 3y ago
  "When you buy a new refrigerator, you probably expect it to last about a decade. Consumer Reports’ member surveys back up that claim, with 10 years being the median expected life span for a newly purchased refrigerator. But it turns out the odds of having a problem-free experience over that decade are not in your favor. Based on our most recent survey results, we estimate that 31 percent of all refrigerators will require repairs by the end of the fifth year of ownership, making them one of the least reliable products we analyze in our surveys." Modern fridges are pretty terrible as an entire category, at all price points.
- brnt 3y ago
  > Information about brand reliability is widely available. Where? If you Google for it, you're only ging to find SEO'd info-free sites. If I take a look at what people tall about in only forums, they haven't a clue either. I just see no evidence of this.
karaterobot 3y ago
This isn't a relevant paper, not only because it's not about home appliances, but because it's about a situation where there is information asymmetry. I can research everything I need to know about a refrigerator before buying it, including whether it's a piece of junk or not.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  No, you can't. What you can do is read as much as possible, and make a guess. Most of what you have read will probably have been indirectly sponsored by the manufacturer, or one of its competitors. None of it will be rigorous - in fact, the most honest information you get will be anecdotes from people whose purchases have failed, and who are as likely as not outliers.
- owisd 3y ago
  I don’t think the fact that you could potentially invest time in closing the information gap negates the general point, e.g. you could take a course in car mechanics before buying a used car
- layer8 3y ago
  > I can research everything I need to know about a refrigerator before buying it, including whether it's a piece of junk or not. Nope. The information made available is usually laughably sparse. And often you only learn about the model’s reliability when it isn’t in the market anymore. Models change faster than reliability can be assessed.
  - tracker1 3y ago
    Not only that, but varying production runs of the same model will vary dramatically... The model in EU, produced in Germany vs the US model (same number) produced in Mexico will vary dramatically. This isn't a promotion or knock on either country, only in that some facilities will do better/worse than others, source different parts from different suppliers and have varying results. Beyond this, is the brand white labelling and the same or differing parts for varying lines of appliances from different brands even.
ASalazarMX 3y ago
Consumers are actually the problem, just as voters are the main cause of bad politicians. Most people will say they want one thing, but actually want another. They want robust appliances, but they will buy the 199.99 ones, which forces even the most honest manufacturer into a race to the bottom, unless they target the luxury segment. An airline which I can't recall, found the same: people say the want more leg room or other comfort, but when it's the time to pay, most end up choosing the cheapest ticket.
- Naijoko 3y ago
  if consumers are the problem. Where can I buy one of those fridge that works for 50 years? Seems like the market is missing quality good.... could this be the problem?
  - Night_Thastus 3y ago
    You're not going to find that in the consumer segment at all, the pressures are too great - even if you're going more upscale like Miele or Bosch. If you want a fridge that lasts 50 years, go to the commercial segment instead. It'll cost a lot and likely isn't great for day-to-day use, but that's the best you'll get.
- viraptor 3y ago
  > They want robust appliances, but they will buy the 199.99 ones That's unfair for many people. Not only do robust appliances cost significantly more, you also need to figure out which significantly more expensive model is also robust. You can't easily sample and replace a fridge when it's not the ideal one. > found the same: people say the want more leg room or other comfort, but when it's the time to pay, most end up choosing the cheapest ticket. There's nothing weird about it. Premium economy on the flight to my family is 2-3x the price on an already expensive flight. For my parents that's effectively equivalent to choosing: "visit once a year, or every 3 years". This view of customers are the problem, they don't spend enough feels really bad - a disconnect of what people can realistically spend money on. There's many who need to consciously save for a few months to buy the $199 appliance.
- 3y ago

jdminhbg 3y ago

> It's just The Market For Lemons at work. It's not, really. Information about brand reliability is widely available. People just value different things.

beardbound 3y ago
I agree that people value different things but I wouldn’t say information about brand reliability is widely available. I have a consumer reports membership for checking that kind of thing simply because all of the info out there is mostly blogspam and fake review sites. Information from reputable sources on large appliance purchases is incredibly hard to find since most people don’t buy appliances often, so even consumers used to doing online research will be hard pressed to know which sites to trust. I know that I wouldn’t have a clue. If there is a place besides consumer reports, which is a paid service, where you can. Heck these things I would be very interested in hearing about it.
- sharemywin 3y ago
  how would a site like this even get paid? from appliance company commissions?
JohnFen 3y ago
> Information about brand reliability is widely available. Information that you can trust, however, is harder to find.
coryfklein 3y ago
> Information about brand reliability is widely available I too see this information everywhere but I have no idea what to trust on this anymore and what information is paid for and gamed by the companies themselves. Brand reputation is its own business these days with its own products and markets.
- sharemywin 3y ago
  exactly. everything is corruptible anymore.
- Qwertious 3y ago
  >Brand reputation is its own business these days with its own products and markets. I'm halfway convinced that selling a brand is just sort of illegitimate - a brand is just a reputation (ie. built-up trust), and selling out your reputation for money on your way out the door is cleanly, obviously immoral. I'm sure there are arguments for it (like "well surely my son can inherit the family business" and "well surely I can sell the business to someone who I trust to maintain reputation"), but overall those arguments don't change what actually happens: the business is sold to someone who wants the profit from abusing the trust that's been built up.
potta_coffee 3y ago
Shopping for appliances recently, I found that ALL available brands are pretty shit as far as reliability goes. It's basically a gamble. I've learned to avoid Samsung though because the circuit boards in them cannot be had for any amount of money and so the appliances are essentially not repairable.
astrostl 3y ago
"When you buy a new refrigerator, you probably expect it to last about a decade. Consumer Reports’ member surveys back up that claim, with 10 years being the median expected life span for a newly purchased refrigerator. But it turns out the odds of having a problem-free experience over that decade are not in your favor. Based on our most recent survey results, we estimate that 31 percent of all refrigerators will require repairs by the end of the fifth year of ownership, making them one of the least reliable products we analyze in our surveys." Modern fridges are pretty terrible as an entire category, at all price points.
brnt 3y ago
> Information about brand reliability is widely available. Where? If you Google for it, you're only ging to find SEO'd info-free sites. If I take a look at what people tall about in only forums, they haven't a clue either. I just see no evidence of this.

karaterobot 3y ago

This isn't a relevant paper, not only because it's not about home appliances, but because it's about a situation where there is information asymmetry. I can research everything I need to know about a refrigerator before buying it, including whether it's a piece of junk or not.

pessimizer 3y ago
No, you can't. What you can do is read as much as possible, and make a guess. Most of what you have read will probably have been indirectly sponsored by the manufacturer, or one of its competitors. None of it will be rigorous - in fact, the most honest information you get will be anecdotes from people whose purchases have failed, and who are as likely as not outliers.
owisd 3y ago
I don’t think the fact that you could potentially invest time in closing the information gap negates the general point, e.g. you could take a course in car mechanics before buying a used car
layer8 3y ago
> I can research everything I need to know about a refrigerator before buying it, including whether it's a piece of junk or not. Nope. The information made available is usually laughably sparse. And often you only learn about the model’s reliability when it isn’t in the market anymore. Models change faster than reliability can be assessed.
- tracker1 3y ago
  Not only that, but varying production runs of the same model will vary dramatically... The model in EU, produced in Germany vs the US model (same number) produced in Mexico will vary dramatically. This isn't a promotion or knock on either country, only in that some facilities will do better/worse than others, source different parts from different suppliers and have varying results. Beyond this, is the brand white labelling and the same or differing parts for varying lines of appliances from different brands even.

ASalazarMX 3y ago

Consumers are actually the problem, just as voters are the main cause of bad politicians. Most people will say they want one thing, but actually want another. They want robust appliances, but they will buy the 199.99 ones, which forces even the most honest manufacturer into a race to the bottom, unless they target the luxury segment. An airline which I can't recall, found the same: people say the want more leg room or other comfort, but when it's the time to pay, most end up choosing the cheapest ticket.

Naijoko 3y ago
if consumers are the problem. Where can I buy one of those fridge that works for 50 years? Seems like the market is missing quality good.... could this be the problem?
- Night_Thastus 3y ago
  You're not going to find that in the consumer segment at all, the pressures are too great - even if you're going more upscale like Miele or Bosch. If you want a fridge that lasts 50 years, go to the commercial segment instead. It'll cost a lot and likely isn't great for day-to-day use, but that's the best you'll get.
viraptor 3y ago
> They want robust appliances, but they will buy the 199.99 ones That's unfair for many people. Not only do robust appliances cost significantly more, you also need to figure out which significantly more expensive model is also robust. You can't easily sample and replace a fridge when it's not the ideal one. > found the same: people say the want more leg room or other comfort, but when it's the time to pay, most end up choosing the cheapest ticket. There's nothing weird about it. Premium economy on the flight to my family is 2-3x the price on an already expensive flight. For my parents that's effectively equivalent to choosing: "visit once a year, or every 3 years". This view of customers are the problem, they don't spend enough feels really bad - a disconnect of what people can realistically spend money on. There's many who need to consciously save for a few months to buy the $199 appliance.
3y ago