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I get a little tired of repeating this, but there are some good reasons why fridges (and most appliances) are the way they are now: * Strong regulation on ener

I get a little tired of repeating this, but there are some good reasons why fridges (and most appliances) are the way they are now: * Strong regulation on energy use by appliances (modern fridges are much, much more efficient than ones from 70 years ago) * Extreme competition from companies all over the world * Consumers who care more about convenience and cost above all else, and reliability basically not at all These 3 are why modern appliances are not as reliable. It is not a conspiracy. It is not lazy manufacturers. It is pressure from consumers and government that made things this way. Take HVAC, which is a great example. Regulations have required far greater efficiency. So what happens? You get things like variable-frequency drives. These can slow down the fans in low-load scenarios. However, they also add another failure point. And speaking of fans, many evaporators now use plastic fans instead of metal ones. And guess what? They crack a lot more than the metal ones ever did. But they're lighter and thus more efficient. It's like that with everything. Just take a look at modern clothes washer agitators compared to the old ones. The other problem is really with consumers. All (the vast majority of) consumers care about is convenience, cost, and looks. They want a fridge that has the ice maker and the water dispenser, stainless steel, french double door, etc. They don't care about the reputation of the brand - they just buy the cheapest one that fits those checkboxes. That leads manufacturers to cut cost as much as possible - especially since they now have to compete with companies all over the world with cheap labor, which 70 years ago was not nearly as true.

Qwertious 3y ago
>* Consumers who care more about convenience and cost above all else, and reliability basically not at all Don't blame the consumer for this. It's just The Market For Lemons at work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons If you really need someone to blame, then blame the MBAs who buy up quality brands and then sell junk until the reputation is all ground up.
- jdminhbg 3y ago
  > It's just The Market For Lemons at work. It's not, really. Information about brand reliability is widely available. People just value different things.
  - beardbound 3y ago
    I agree that people value different things but I wouldn’t say information about brand reliability is widely available. I have a consumer reports membership for checking that kind of thing simply because all of the info out there is mostly blogspam and fake review sites. Information from reputable sources on large appliance purchases is incredibly hard to find since most people don’t buy appliances often, so even consumers used to doing online research will be hard pressed to know which sites to trust. I know that I wouldn’t have a clue. If there is a place besides consumer reports, which is a paid service, where you can. Heck these things I would be very interested in hearing about it.
    - sharemywin 3y ago
      how would a site like this even get paid? from appliance company commissions?
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > Information about brand reliability is widely available. Information that you can trust, however, is harder to find.
  - coryfklein 3y ago
    > Information about brand reliability is widely available I too see this information everywhere but I have no idea what to trust on this anymore and what information is paid for and gamed by the companies themselves. Brand reputation is its own business these days with its own products and markets.
    - sharemywin 3y ago
      exactly. everything is corruptible anymore.
    - Qwertious 3y ago
      >Brand reputation is its own business these days with its own products and markets. I'm halfway convinced that selling a brand is just sort of illegitimate - a brand is just a reputation (ie. built-up trust), and selling out your reputation for money on your way out the door is cleanly, obviously immoral. I'm sure there are arguments for it (like "well surely my son can inherit the family business" and "well surely I can sell the business to someone who I trust to maintain reputation"), but overall those arguments don't change what actually happens: the business is sold to someone who wants the profit from abusing the trust that's been built up.
- karaterobot 3y ago
  This isn't a relevant paper, not only because it's not about home appliances, but because it's about a situation where there is information asymmetry. I can research everything I need to know about a refrigerator before buying it, including whether it's a piece of junk or not.
  - pessimizer 3y ago
    No, you can't. What you can do is read as much as possible, and make a guess. Most of what you have read will probably have been indirectly sponsored by the manufacturer, or one of its competitors. None of it will be rigorous - in fact, the most honest information you get will be anecdotes from people whose purchases have failed, and who are as likely as not outliers.
  - owisd 3y ago
    I don’t think the fact that you could potentially invest time in closing the information gap negates the general point, e.g. you could take a course in car mechanics before buying a used car
  - layer8 3y ago
    > I can research everything I need to know about a refrigerator before buying it, including whether it's a piece of junk or not. Nope. The information made available is usually laughably sparse. And often you only learn about the model’s reliability when it isn’t in the market anymore. Models change faster than reliability can be assessed.
    - tracker1 3y ago
      Not only that, but varying production runs of the same model will vary dramatically... The model in EU, produced in Germany vs the US model (same number) produced in Mexico will vary dramatically. This isn't a promotion or knock on either country, only in that some facilities will do better/worse than others, source different parts from different suppliers and have varying results. Beyond this, is the brand white labelling and the same or differing parts for varying lines of appliances from different brands even.
- ASalazarMX 3y ago
  Consumers are actually the problem, just as voters are the main cause of bad politicians. Most people will say they want one thing, but actually want another. They want robust appliances, but they will buy the 199.99 ones, which forces even the most honest manufacturer into a race to the bottom, unless they target the luxury segment. An airline which I can't recall, found the same: people say the want more leg room or other comfort, but when it's the time to pay, most end up choosing the cheapest ticket.
  - Naijoko 3y ago
    if consumers are the problem. Where can I buy one of those fridge that works for 50 years? Seems like the market is missing quality good.... could this be the problem?
    - Night_Thastus 3y ago
      You're not going to find that in the consumer segment at all, the pressures are too great - even if you're going more upscale like Miele or Bosch. If you want a fridge that lasts 50 years, go to the commercial segment instead. It'll cost a lot and likely isn't great for day-to-day use, but that's the best you'll get.
  - viraptor 3y ago
    > They want robust appliances, but they will buy the 199.99 ones That's unfair for many people. Not only do robust appliances cost significantly more, you also need to figure out which significantly more expensive model is also robust. You can't easily sample and replace a fridge when it's not the ideal one. > found the same: people say the want more leg room or other comfort, but when it's the time to pay, most end up choosing the cheapest ticket. There's nothing weird about it. Premium economy on the flight to my family is 2-3x the price on an already expensive flight. For my parents that's effectively equivalent to choosing: "visit once a year, or every 3 years". This view of customers are the problem, they don't spend enough feels really bad - a disconnect of what people can realistically spend money on. There's many who need to consciously save for a few months to buy the $199 appliance.
  - 3y ago
ddoolin 3y ago
> The other problem is really with consumers. All (the vast majority of) consumers care about is convenience, cost, and looks. They want a fridge that has the ice maker and the water dispenser, stainless steel, french double door, etc. They don't care about the reputation of the brand - they just buy the cheapest one that fits those checkboxes. That leads manufacturers to cut cost as much as possible - especially since they now have to compete with companies all over the world with cheap labor, which 70 years ago was not nearly as true. I don't think you're wrong, but I think the why is the crux of the issue, as in why are consumers so cheap? IMO, it's the same reason businesses are happy to cut corners to make them as cheap as possible as well. Turns out it's a negative feedback cycle. Some consumers pay less, so businesses charge less, so businesses pay less, so their employees (customers by another name) have less to spend, etc.
- Night_Thastus 3y ago
  >why are consumers so cheap Because consumers have limited time and effort available. I enjoy spending some time getting good products, but even I admit it takes a lot of time and effort to really research and understand what makes a product good. Looking at a multitude of reviews (avoiding the ones that are bought out), looking over recommendations from repair people with many years in the field, looking at online discussion forums for people really interested in X product, etc. Really starting to understand the different parts and pieces, and manufacturing approaches. You need to actually learn how the product works internally to an extent. It can take weeks of back and forth discussion and research. Most people have very busy lives with children and work and sports and whatever else. They don't have the time or energy to spend weeks finding the PERFECT refrigerator. They just buy one that works and move on with their lives. Price is easy. Smaller number better. Don't need to think about that one much.
karaterobot 3y ago
> The other problem is really with consumers. Nobody ever wants to admit that they make bad choices, but this is the most important explanation for why a lot of stuff sucks. If people were willing to pay more for a reliable refrigerator, that's what would get made. In empirical fact, their actual priority is cheapness, so that's what they get.
- keymon-o 3y ago
  Do you have any suggestions how at least a single consumer would initiate a demand for reliability? And how would a manufacturer declare and prove they indeed include reliability in their products?
  - wizofaus 3y ago
    If I could choose between a $1000 appliance with a 10-year warranty and a $500 one with a 5-year warranty I know what I'd go with. But that sort of choice is virtually never available.
    - keymon-o 3y ago
      I missed this comment, sorry for the late reply. A warranty system guarantees for free repairs or replacements but doesn't guarantee for a reliable product. Plus choosing a $1000 for a 10-year warranty would be a very bad deal, since $500 guarantees you 5-year product, additional working time or ability to sell and repurchase of an improved version of a product. Minus could be inflation or less reliable product in the future.
- JeremyNT 3y ago
  Except that there's basically no way to know which products are going to be more reliable! You can use price as some kind of signal, but it's only loosely correlated. Manufacturers use a dizzying array of different model numbers that change constantly, so it's impossible to buy a model that's been in the field long enough to have a meaningful track record. You can probably figure out that some brands are basically always junk, but even the brands that do make higher quality products also sometimes make junk, so good luck...
amluto 3y ago
> Just take a look at modern clothes washer agitators compared to the old ones. Huh? Good modern clothes washers don’t have agitators. Agitators clean well, but they are terrible for clothing. A good modern front loader cleans almost as well and damages your clothing much less in the process.
- Night_Thastus 3y ago
  Last time I looked into it, I saw that the large, conical agitator had been replaced with a sort of agitator-plate that was much smaller. Part of that is it's also more efficient, iirc.
  - adrr 3y ago
    They are one of the most efficient washers in terms of water usage. i like them better than front loaders because of issues with the gasket like leaking and keep the gasket clean from mildew. Its just slower but with increased capacity. I can fit two queen sized comforters in mine with no issues. https://www.consumerreports.org/top-load-he-washer/things-to-know-about-high-efficiency-top-loaders-a6745584111/ https://www.consumerreports.org/top-load-he-washer/things-to...
    - tracker1 3y ago
      Not to mention, they both don't need to be as heavy, and are more mechanically stable than trying to balance a heavy water load effectively from the sides.
dig1 3y ago
I will second this as I recently went through an interesting road of purchasing a new fridge. I looked for good energy efficiency, a long warranty, replacement parts availability, and nothing else fancy. None of the models from the famous brands (Samsung, LG, etc.) had these; instead, they had internet connectivity, an ice/water dispenser, all sorts of nooks and crannies, and (what is currently quite popular) a low price. I found a bland-looking Liebherr at a discount (still pricey compared to mentioned brands), and I'm happy for now. It looks like reliability and serviceability are considered a premium these days.
cududa 3y ago
I mean even when you buy an expensive appliance, the majority of them still tend to break way too quickly and are just more costly to repair. I'd happily pay more for something well made, but, unless it's like commercial kitchen quality, it's still not "great"
- Night_Thastus 3y ago
  You might happily pay more, but 99% of consumers won't. They just look at the sticker price + features and call it a day. And with the prices this low and trying to meet energy goals, reliability goes out the window.
  - vineyardmike 3y ago
    > They just look at the sticker price + features and call it a day This thread makes it clear most people think all models are unreliable or that a consumer can’t search based on reliability. If you accept everything is equally unreliable or unreliability is equally unknown, what else but price and features would you use to make a decision?
    - Night_Thastus 3y ago
      If reliability is a true concern, then go commercial. If not, spend weeks researching. Cross reference text and video reviews from many sources, look into the technologies manufacturers use, look at feedback from people working in the repair industry, etc. Then, maybe you can get something a bit better than average. At the very least you'll avoid the true lemons.
      - vineyardmike 3y ago
        Well thanks for telling me this. My point was that reliability could be a true concern, but if people believe they can’t shop for it, they won’t bother. You kinda proved my point too - your suggested steps to follow take weeks, and end in a “maybe you’ll get something a bit better than average”. That truly sounds like “don’t bother even if you want it”.
ekanes 3y ago
Similar to why the flying experience can be so awful - consumers by airline tickets based largely on price. The airlines that lower costs (and experience) best win.
- Night_Thastus 3y ago
  And somewhat counterintuitively, they don't even make most of their profit off of ticket sales. The big players make almost all their money on the reward cards and membership systems. Some of them even take a loss on their ticket sales just to make the memberships more appealing. In that scenario, there's little reason to make the flying experience great.
- tracker1 3y ago
  Not for everyone... I'll go with a different airline for a generally better experience. Ex: Delta over United.
Naijoko 3y ago
how could it be the consumer if the Industry did fake good products since the begining of time? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
greatfilter251 3y ago
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Qwertious 3y ago

>* Consumers who care more about convenience and cost above all else, and reliability basically not at all Don't blame the consumer for this. It's just The Market For Lemons at work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons If you really need someone to blame, then blame the MBAs who buy up quality brands and then sell junk until the reputation is all ground up.

jdminhbg 3y ago
> It's just The Market For Lemons at work. It's not, really. Information about brand reliability is widely available. People just value different things.
- beardbound 3y ago
  I agree that people value different things but I wouldn’t say information about brand reliability is widely available. I have a consumer reports membership for checking that kind of thing simply because all of the info out there is mostly blogspam and fake review sites. Information from reputable sources on large appliance purchases is incredibly hard to find since most people don’t buy appliances often, so even consumers used to doing online research will be hard pressed to know which sites to trust. I know that I wouldn’t have a clue. If there is a place besides consumer reports, which is a paid service, where you can. Heck these things I would be very interested in hearing about it.
  - sharemywin 3y ago
    how would a site like this even get paid? from appliance company commissions?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Information about brand reliability is widely available. Information that you can trust, however, is harder to find.
- coryfklein 3y ago
  > Information about brand reliability is widely available I too see this information everywhere but I have no idea what to trust on this anymore and what information is paid for and gamed by the companies themselves. Brand reputation is its own business these days with its own products and markets.
  - sharemywin 3y ago
    exactly. everything is corruptible anymore.
  - Qwertious 3y ago
    >Brand reputation is its own business these days with its own products and markets. I'm halfway convinced that selling a brand is just sort of illegitimate - a brand is just a reputation (ie. built-up trust), and selling out your reputation for money on your way out the door is cleanly, obviously immoral. I'm sure there are arguments for it (like "well surely my son can inherit the family business" and "well surely I can sell the business to someone who I trust to maintain reputation"), but overall those arguments don't change what actually happens: the business is sold to someone who wants the profit from abusing the trust that's been built up.
karaterobot 3y ago
This isn't a relevant paper, not only because it's not about home appliances, but because it's about a situation where there is information asymmetry. I can research everything I need to know about a refrigerator before buying it, including whether it's a piece of junk or not.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  No, you can't. What you can do is read as much as possible, and make a guess. Most of what you have read will probably have been indirectly sponsored by the manufacturer, or one of its competitors. None of it will be rigorous - in fact, the most honest information you get will be anecdotes from people whose purchases have failed, and who are as likely as not outliers.
- owisd 3y ago
  I don’t think the fact that you could potentially invest time in closing the information gap negates the general point, e.g. you could take a course in car mechanics before buying a used car
- layer8 3y ago
  > I can research everything I need to know about a refrigerator before buying it, including whether it's a piece of junk or not. Nope. The information made available is usually laughably sparse. And often you only learn about the model’s reliability when it isn’t in the market anymore. Models change faster than reliability can be assessed.
  - tracker1 3y ago
    Not only that, but varying production runs of the same model will vary dramatically... The model in EU, produced in Germany vs the US model (same number) produced in Mexico will vary dramatically. This isn't a promotion or knock on either country, only in that some facilities will do better/worse than others, source different parts from different suppliers and have varying results. Beyond this, is the brand white labelling and the same or differing parts for varying lines of appliances from different brands even.
ASalazarMX 3y ago
Consumers are actually the problem, just as voters are the main cause of bad politicians. Most people will say they want one thing, but actually want another. They want robust appliances, but they will buy the 199.99 ones, which forces even the most honest manufacturer into a race to the bottom, unless they target the luxury segment. An airline which I can't recall, found the same: people say the want more leg room or other comfort, but when it's the time to pay, most end up choosing the cheapest ticket.
- Naijoko 3y ago
  if consumers are the problem. Where can I buy one of those fridge that works for 50 years? Seems like the market is missing quality good.... could this be the problem?
  - Night_Thastus 3y ago
    You're not going to find that in the consumer segment at all, the pressures are too great - even if you're going more upscale like Miele or Bosch. If you want a fridge that lasts 50 years, go to the commercial segment instead. It'll cost a lot and likely isn't great for day-to-day use, but that's the best you'll get.
- viraptor 3y ago
  > They want robust appliances, but they will buy the 199.99 ones That's unfair for many people. Not only do robust appliances cost significantly more, you also need to figure out which significantly more expensive model is also robust. You can't easily sample and replace a fridge when it's not the ideal one. > found the same: people say the want more leg room or other comfort, but when it's the time to pay, most end up choosing the cheapest ticket. There's nothing weird about it. Premium economy on the flight to my family is 2-3x the price on an already expensive flight. For my parents that's effectively equivalent to choosing: "visit once a year, or every 3 years". This view of customers are the problem, they don't spend enough feels really bad - a disconnect of what people can realistically spend money on. There's many who need to consciously save for a few months to buy the $199 appliance.
- 3y ago

ddoolin 3y ago

> The other problem is really with consumers. All (the vast majority of) consumers care about is convenience, cost, and looks. They want a fridge that has the ice maker and the water dispenser, stainless steel, french double door, etc. They don't care about the reputation of the brand - they just buy the cheapest one that fits those checkboxes. That leads manufacturers to cut cost as much as possible - especially since they now have to compete with companies all over the world with cheap labor, which 70 years ago was not nearly as true. I don't think you're wrong, but I think the why is the crux of the issue, as in why are consumers so cheap? IMO, it's the same reason businesses are happy to cut corners to make them as cheap as possible as well. Turns out it's a negative feedback cycle. Some consumers pay less, so businesses charge less, so businesses pay less, so their employees (customers by another name) have less to spend, etc.

Night_Thastus 3y ago
>why are consumers so cheap Because consumers have limited time and effort available. I enjoy spending some time getting good products, but even I admit it takes a lot of time and effort to really research and understand what makes a product good. Looking at a multitude of reviews (avoiding the ones that are bought out), looking over recommendations from repair people with many years in the field, looking at online discussion forums for people really interested in X product, etc. Really starting to understand the different parts and pieces, and manufacturing approaches. You need to actually learn how the product works internally to an extent. It can take weeks of back and forth discussion and research. Most people have very busy lives with children and work and sports and whatever else. They don't have the time or energy to spend weeks finding the PERFECT refrigerator. They just buy one that works and move on with their lives. Price is easy. Smaller number better. Don't need to think about that one much.

karaterobot 3y ago

> The other problem is really with consumers. Nobody ever wants to admit that they make bad choices, but this is the most important explanation for why a lot of stuff sucks. If people were willing to pay more for a reliable refrigerator, that's what would get made. In empirical fact, their actual priority is cheapness, so that's what they get.

keymon-o 3y ago
Do you have any suggestions how at least a single consumer would initiate a demand for reliability? And how would a manufacturer declare and prove they indeed include reliability in their products?
- wizofaus 3y ago
  If I could choose between a $1000 appliance with a 10-year warranty and a $500 one with a 5-year warranty I know what I'd go with. But that sort of choice is virtually never available.
  - keymon-o 3y ago
    I missed this comment, sorry for the late reply. A warranty system guarantees for free repairs or replacements but doesn't guarantee for a reliable product. Plus choosing a $1000 for a 10-year warranty would be a very bad deal, since $500 guarantees you 5-year product, additional working time or ability to sell and repurchase of an improved version of a product. Minus could be inflation or less reliable product in the future.
JeremyNT 3y ago
Except that there's basically no way to know which products are going to be more reliable! You can use price as some kind of signal, but it's only loosely correlated. Manufacturers use a dizzying array of different model numbers that change constantly, so it's impossible to buy a model that's been in the field long enough to have a meaningful track record. You can probably figure out that some brands are basically always junk, but even the brands that do make higher quality products also sometimes make junk, so good luck...

amluto 3y ago

> Just take a look at modern clothes washer agitators compared to the old ones. Huh? Good modern clothes washers don’t have agitators. Agitators clean well, but they are terrible for clothing. A good modern front loader cleans almost as well and damages your clothing much less in the process.

Night_Thastus 3y ago
Last time I looked into it, I saw that the large, conical agitator had been replaced with a sort of agitator-plate that was much smaller. Part of that is it's also more efficient, iirc.
- adrr 3y ago
  They are one of the most efficient washers in terms of water usage. i like them better than front loaders because of issues with the gasket like leaking and keep the gasket clean from mildew. Its just slower but with increased capacity. I can fit two queen sized comforters in mine with no issues. https://www.consumerreports.org/top-load-he-washer/things-to-know-about-high-efficiency-top-loaders-a6745584111/ https://www.consumerreports.org/top-load-he-washer/things-to...
  - tracker1 3y ago
    Not to mention, they both don't need to be as heavy, and are more mechanically stable than trying to balance a heavy water load effectively from the sides.

dig1 3y ago

I will second this as I recently went through an interesting road of purchasing a new fridge. I looked for good energy efficiency, a long warranty, replacement parts availability, and nothing else fancy. None of the models from the famous brands (Samsung, LG, etc.) had these; instead, they had internet connectivity, an ice/water dispenser, all sorts of nooks and crannies, and (what is currently quite popular) a low price. I found a bland-looking Liebherr at a discount (still pricey compared to mentioned brands), and I'm happy for now. It looks like reliability and serviceability are considered a premium these days.

cududa 3y ago

I mean even when you buy an expensive appliance, the majority of them still tend to break way too quickly and are just more costly to repair. I'd happily pay more for something well made, but, unless it's like commercial kitchen quality, it's still not "great"

Night_Thastus 3y ago
You might happily pay more, but 99% of consumers won't. They just look at the sticker price + features and call it a day. And with the prices this low and trying to meet energy goals, reliability goes out the window.
- vineyardmike 3y ago
  > They just look at the sticker price + features and call it a day This thread makes it clear most people think all models are unreliable or that a consumer can’t search based on reliability. If you accept everything is equally unreliable or unreliability is equally unknown, what else but price and features would you use to make a decision?
  - Night_Thastus 3y ago
    If reliability is a true concern, then go commercial. If not, spend weeks researching. Cross reference text and video reviews from many sources, look into the technologies manufacturers use, look at feedback from people working in the repair industry, etc. Then, maybe you can get something a bit better than average. At the very least you'll avoid the true lemons.
    - vineyardmike 3y ago
      Well thanks for telling me this. My point was that reliability could be a true concern, but if people believe they can’t shop for it, they won’t bother. You kinda proved my point too - your suggested steps to follow take weeks, and end in a “maybe you’ll get something a bit better than average”. That truly sounds like “don’t bother even if you want it”.

ekanes 3y ago

Similar to why the flying experience can be so awful - consumers by airline tickets based largely on price. The airlines that lower costs (and experience) best win.

Night_Thastus 3y ago
And somewhat counterintuitively, they don't even make most of their profit off of ticket sales. The big players make almost all their money on the reward cards and membership systems. Some of them even take a loss on their ticket sales just to make the memberships more appealing. In that scenario, there's little reason to make the flying experience great.
tracker1 3y ago
Not for everyone... I'll go with a different airline for a generally better experience. Ex: Delta over United.

Naijoko 3y ago

how could it be the consumer if the Industry did fake good products since the begining of time? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

greatfilter251 3y ago

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