6 ms·

Battery-electric “Infinity Train” will charge itself using gravity (2022)

72 points by jermaustin1 3y ago

grecy 3y ago
See also - many mines around the world using enormous electric trucks that never need to be re-charged. They go uphill empty, and re-gen their entire battery on the way down when fully loaded. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1124478_world-s-largest-ev-never-has-to-be-recharged https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1124478_world-s-largest...
- jermaustin1 3y ago
  I wonder what they are doing with the excess power. I'm sure it wouldn't be worth it to pump back to the grid, but maybe to off load into mining equipment, especially since the truck would need to start at around 60% battery charge each day to avoid over charging.
  - Arrath 3y ago
    Running other equipment within the mine and lessening the load on the generators, generally.
- presidentender 3y ago
  I am embarrassed to say how little sense that made to me - the mines with which I am passingly familiar are all open-pit copper mines, where the extraction takes place below the processing, and I could not get my head around the idea that this one truck was taking some material down to the mine. Of course the answer is that this mine is at the top of a mountain, and the processing facility is lower. The material the truck hauls is lime and marl.
  - KennyBlanken 3y ago
    It really is breathtaking - in a heartbreaking way - that we have 'developed' to the point as a society where we regularly destroy entire mountains. Removing them is not without consequence - a mountain alters the weather around it. So incredibly foolish.
    - fnord77 3y ago
      wait until you find about about Kardashev Type II civilizations
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- m3kw9 3y ago
  Seems like a circular problem, how did you get all the cargo at the top of the hill in the first place?
  - bwilliams18 3y ago
    they're extracting the cargo from the earth at the top of the hill.
  - jlhawn 3y ago
    It's a mine. The hill is the cargo.
  - jnsaff2 3y ago
    Mountain forming is how all that cargo got to the top.
- lordfrito 3y ago
  Crazy, basically using the stored potential energy to their advantage. Never occurred to me to use the energy to create electricity. Makes me wonder if you could build a power plant at the bottom of a mountain that slowly levels the mountain to power the local grid. I wonder just how much potential energy could be extracted from a mountain?
  - heattemp99 3y ago
    I've got an idea.. we build a wall at the edge of a huge mountain area. Water collects behind the wall during the winter, and then in the spring and summer we let the water out through a hole in the wall, which spins generators while the water flows out the hole.
    - lordfrito 3y ago
      Interestingly, there's a lot of current work around grid energy storage. Storing excess wind/solar power for use overnight, etc. Everybody assumes batteries (lithium etc.) as the way to go. However the greenest / most efficient way to store the energy is actually just pumping water uphill to a reservoir, and extracting the energy by letting it flow back down. Of course this storage system only works wherever there is someplace "higher" to pump the water. My understanding is that it's not worth the trouble to build a hill/mountain to pump the water up.
      - ElectricalUnion 3y ago
        And when you have the space and the ability to build such pumped-storage hydroelectricity facilities, they require much cheaper and much more environment friendly materials. And most already build hydroelectricity facilities can be retrofitted (although at high cost) to become pumped-storage hydroelectricity facilities.
        kwhitefoot 3y ago
        > And most already build hydroelectricity facilities can be retrofitted (although at high cost) to become pumped-storage hydroelectricity facilities. Really? You need a huge downstream reservoir to hold the water that you are going to pump to the upstream reservoir.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
m3kw9 3y ago
Didn’t think perpetual machines would still make HN front page
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  I mean it is clickbait but it is also a thing that can easily work and there are already mining trucks that do this. They work because they transport matter from a higher place to a lower place and therefore are much heavier downhill then uphill.
  - Gare 3y ago
    Electric trains and trams in Europe already have regen braking. And no need for batteries!
    - surfmike 3y ago
      How does that work without batteries? Where does the energy go?
      - ljf 3y ago
        Back into the power grid. Quote: When regenerative braking is employed, the current in the electric motors is reversed, slowing down the train. At the same time, the electro motors generate electricity to be returned to the power distribution system https://www.ctc-n.org/technologies/regenerative-braking-trains https://www.ctc-n.org/technologies/regenerative-braking-trai...
      - AndrewDucker 3y ago
        I assume it goes into the grid. Possibly to other trains that need the power right then.
      - blacksmith_tb 3y ago
        The light rail MAX trains in Portland use regen braking without batteries, as one train is slowing it's generating power for other trains that are in motion[1]. 1: https://www.wired.com/2013/06/portland-light-rail/ https://www.wired.com/2013/06/portland-light-rail/
ortusdux 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_braking#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_braking#History Regenerative braking has been in extensive use on railways for many decades. The Baku-Tbilisi-Batumi railway (Transcaucasus Railway or Georgian railway) started utilizing regenerative braking in the early 1930s. This was especially effective on the steep and dangerous Surami Pass. In Scandinavia the Kiruna to Narvik electrified railway, known as Malmbanan on the Swedish side and Ofoten Line on the Norwegian, carries iron ore on the steeply-graded route from the mines in Kiruna, in the north of Sweden, down to the port of Narvik in Norway to this day. The rail cars are full of thousands of tons of iron ore on the way down to Narvik, and these trains generate large amounts of electricity by regenerative braking, with a maximum recuperative braking force of 750 kN. From Riksgränsen on the national border to the Port of Narvik, the trains use only a fifth of the power they regenerate. The regenerated energy is sufficient to power the empty trains back up to the national border. Any excess energy from the railway is pumped into the power grid to supply homes and businesses in the region, and the railway is a net generator of electricity.
- perilunar 3y ago
  What's particularly interesting here is that the Pilbara, where the mines and trains in the article are located, is only 500–1000 metres elevation, and the train tracks are hundreds of kilometres long. So we are talking of an average grade of one in several hundred. i.e. very much not steep! Topographic map of the Pilbara: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilbara#General https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilbara#General Map of the rail network: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railways_in_the_Pilbara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railways_in_the_Pilbara
  - defrost 3y ago
    Also worth mentioning that Pilbara ore trains are consistently almost the longest trains in the world, (although just for fun BHP railways holds a record of operating the longest train in the word at 7.3km 99k tonnes in 2001). But they are likely the heaviest at around 42,000-43,000 tonnes per train with an average length at just under 3000 metres (1.85 miles) each. That's a lot of mass to drive recharging, and the laden to unladen ratio easily exceeds that of a European swallow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBXZbn7q7jQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBXZbn7q7jQ
_trampeltier 3y ago
In Sitzerland they developed a such truck (2017). He drives down fully loaded with stones and does load the batterys. Then the truck drives up again empty. https://www.empa.ch/web/s604/e-dumper https://www.empa.ch/web/s604/e-dumper
WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
With the advent of recuperative braking, Sisyphus found a new purpose in afterlife after Hades had modified his punishment a little bit.
HenryBemis 3y ago
Not gonna lie, I checked their price and it didn't jump 200% in one day. so...? As the article questions - "Is this a super-specific single use case, or something that will be able to roll out to a wider market?" Reading the other comments, and understanding that the technology (brake-to-charge) exists already in the market, I wonder what is the 'patentable' thing that would propel their stock. Would they manufacture engines & components (i.e. to install to every wagon's braking system?) Doesn't that IP/patent already exist?
pimlottc 3y ago
Tom Scott made a video about a lower-tech version of this [0], an aerial ropeway that transports loads of shale over a mile and a half using the power of gravity. There's no need for regenerative batteries here, as the empty cars going back uphill are directly connected (via the rope) to the laden carts traveling downhill. Simple, elegant, and efficient. 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RiYXI1Tfu4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RiYXI1Tfu4
- Animats 3y ago
  It's also done for downhill mining conveyor belts.[1] [1] https://library.e.abb.com/public/e2feea97fac59fccc12576c400588340/14778_FactFileAD16_Downhill_conveyors_RevA_lowres.pdf https://library.e.abb.com/public/e2feea97fac59fccc12576c4005...
- Shawnj2 3y ago
  The “lower tech” version is probably more efficient as well lol since regen braking isn’t very energy efficient
- nuancebydefault 3y ago
  Like the SFO cable carts?
frud 3y ago
Now if only we could produce all resources on top of Mount Everest and consume them all in Death Valley.

72 points by jermaustin1 3y ago

See also - many mines around the world using enormous electric trucks that never need to be re-charged. They go uphill empty, and re-gen their entire battery on the way down when fully loaded. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1124478_world-s-largest-ev-never-has-to-be-recharged https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1124478_world-s-largest...

jermaustin1 3y ago
I wonder what they are doing with the excess power. I'm sure it wouldn't be worth it to pump back to the grid, but maybe to off load into mining equipment, especially since the truck would need to start at around 60% battery charge each day to avoid over charging.
- Arrath 3y ago
  Running other equipment within the mine and lessening the load on the generators, generally.
presidentender 3y ago
I am embarrassed to say how little sense that made to me - the mines with which I am passingly familiar are all open-pit copper mines, where the extraction takes place below the processing, and I could not get my head around the idea that this one truck was taking some material down to the mine. Of course the answer is that this mine is at the top of a mountain, and the processing facility is lower. The material the truck hauls is lime and marl.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  It really is breathtaking - in a heartbreaking way - that we have 'developed' to the point as a society where we regularly destroy entire mountains. Removing them is not without consequence - a mountain alters the weather around it. So incredibly foolish.
  - fnord77 3y ago
    wait until you find about about Kardashev Type II civilizations
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
m3kw9 3y ago
Seems like a circular problem, how did you get all the cargo at the top of the hill in the first place?
- bwilliams18 3y ago
  they're extracting the cargo from the earth at the top of the hill.
- jlhawn 3y ago
  It's a mine. The hill is the cargo.
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  Mountain forming is how all that cargo got to the top.
lordfrito 3y ago
Crazy, basically using the stored potential energy to their advantage. Never occurred to me to use the energy to create electricity. Makes me wonder if you could build a power plant at the bottom of a mountain that slowly levels the mountain to power the local grid. I wonder just how much potential energy could be extracted from a mountain?
- heattemp99 3y ago
  I've got an idea.. we build a wall at the edge of a huge mountain area. Water collects behind the wall during the winter, and then in the spring and summer we let the water out through a hole in the wall, which spins generators while the water flows out the hole.
  - lordfrito 3y ago
    Interestingly, there's a lot of current work around grid energy storage. Storing excess wind/solar power for use overnight, etc. Everybody assumes batteries (lithium etc.) as the way to go. However the greenest / most efficient way to store the energy is actually just pumping water uphill to a reservoir, and extracting the energy by letting it flow back down. Of course this storage system only works wherever there is someplace "higher" to pump the water. My understanding is that it's not worth the trouble to build a hill/mountain to pump the water up.
    - ElectricalUnion 3y ago
      And when you have the space and the ability to build such pumped-storage hydroelectricity facilities, they require much cheaper and much more environment friendly materials. And most already build hydroelectricity facilities can be retrofitted (although at high cost) to become pumped-storage hydroelectricity facilities.
      - kwhitefoot 3y ago
        > And most already build hydroelectricity facilities can be retrofitted (although at high cost) to become pumped-storage hydroelectricity facilities. Really? You need a huge downstream reservoir to hold the water that you are going to pump to the upstream reservoir.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

m3kw9 3y ago

Didn’t think perpetual machines would still make HN front page

jnsaff2 3y ago
I mean it is clickbait but it is also a thing that can easily work and there are already mining trucks that do this. They work because they transport matter from a higher place to a lower place and therefore are much heavier downhill then uphill.
- Gare 3y ago
  Electric trains and trams in Europe already have regen braking. And no need for batteries!
  - surfmike 3y ago
    How does that work without batteries? Where does the energy go?
    - ljf 3y ago
      Back into the power grid. Quote: When regenerative braking is employed, the current in the electric motors is reversed, slowing down the train. At the same time, the electro motors generate electricity to be returned to the power distribution system https://www.ctc-n.org/technologies/regenerative-braking-trains https://www.ctc-n.org/technologies/regenerative-braking-trai...
    - AndrewDucker 3y ago
      I assume it goes into the grid. Possibly to other trains that need the power right then.
    - blacksmith_tb 3y ago
      The light rail MAX trains in Portland use regen braking without batteries, as one train is slowing it's generating power for other trains that are in motion[1]. 1: https://www.wired.com/2013/06/portland-light-rail/ https://www.wired.com/2013/06/portland-light-rail/

ortusdux 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_braking#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_braking#History Regenerative braking has been in extensive use on railways for many decades. The Baku-Tbilisi-Batumi railway (Transcaucasus Railway or Georgian railway) started utilizing regenerative braking in the early 1930s. This was especially effective on the steep and dangerous Surami Pass. In Scandinavia the Kiruna to Narvik electrified railway, known as Malmbanan on the Swedish side and Ofoten Line on the Norwegian, carries iron ore on the steeply-graded route from the mines in Kiruna, in the north of Sweden, down to the port of Narvik in Norway to this day. The rail cars are full of thousands of tons of iron ore on the way down to Narvik, and these trains generate large amounts of electricity by regenerative braking, with a maximum recuperative braking force of 750 kN. From Riksgränsen on the national border to the Port of Narvik, the trains use only a fifth of the power they regenerate. The regenerated energy is sufficient to power the empty trains back up to the national border. Any excess energy from the railway is pumped into the power grid to supply homes and businesses in the region, and the railway is a net generator of electricity.

perilunar 3y ago
What's particularly interesting here is that the Pilbara, where the mines and trains in the article are located, is only 500–1000 metres elevation, and the train tracks are hundreds of kilometres long. So we are talking of an average grade of one in several hundred. i.e. very much not steep! Topographic map of the Pilbara: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilbara#General https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilbara#General Map of the rail network: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railways_in_the_Pilbara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railways_in_the_Pilbara
- defrost 3y ago
  Also worth mentioning that Pilbara ore trains are consistently almost the longest trains in the world, (although just for fun BHP railways holds a record of operating the longest train in the word at 7.3km 99k tonnes in 2001). But they are likely the heaviest at around 42,000-43,000 tonnes per train with an average length at just under 3000 metres (1.85 miles) each. That's a lot of mass to drive recharging, and the laden to unladen ratio easily exceeds that of a European swallow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBXZbn7q7jQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBXZbn7q7jQ

_trampeltier 3y ago

In Sitzerland they developed a such truck (2017). He drives down fully loaded with stones and does load the batterys. Then the truck drives up again empty. https://www.empa.ch/web/s604/e-dumper https://www.empa.ch/web/s604/e-dumper

WesolyKubeczek 3y ago

With the advent of recuperative braking, Sisyphus found a new purpose in afterlife after Hades had modified his punishment a little bit.

HenryBemis 3y ago

Not gonna lie, I checked their price and it didn't jump 200% in one day. so...? As the article questions - "Is this a super-specific single use case, or something that will be able to roll out to a wider market?" Reading the other comments, and understanding that the technology (brake-to-charge) exists already in the market, I wonder what is the 'patentable' thing that would propel their stock. Would they manufacture engines & components (i.e. to install to every wagon's braking system?) Doesn't that IP/patent already exist?

pimlottc 3y ago

Tom Scott made a video about a lower-tech version of this [0], an aerial ropeway that transports loads of shale over a mile and a half using the power of gravity. There's no need for regenerative batteries here, as the empty cars going back uphill are directly connected (via the rope) to the laden carts traveling downhill. Simple, elegant, and efficient. 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RiYXI1Tfu4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RiYXI1Tfu4

Animats 3y ago
It's also done for downhill mining conveyor belts.[1] [1] https://library.e.abb.com/public/e2feea97fac59fccc12576c400588340/14778_FactFileAD16_Downhill_conveyors_RevA_lowres.pdf https://library.e.abb.com/public/e2feea97fac59fccc12576c4005...
Shawnj2 3y ago
The “lower tech” version is probably more efficient as well lol since regen braking isn’t very energy efficient
nuancebydefault 3y ago
Like the SFO cable carts?

frud 3y ago

Now if only we could produce all resources on top of Mount Everest and consume them all in Death Valley.