3 ms·

Do not miss an important detail: it is Kaleido. It means, it uses an overlaid colour filter matrix (RGBW, if I remember correctly). This allows for the compara

by mdp2021 3y ago

Do not miss an important detail: it is Kaleido. It means, it uses an overlaid colour filter matrix (RGBW, if I remember correctly). This allows for the comparatively high refresh rates of B/W EPD, but it is B/W EPD with a semi-transparent multi-tinted layer on top, which obviously impacts the brightness. (The alternative would be multi-pigmented EPD cells - "Advanced Color E-Paper"... Which suffers from dramatically low refresh rate.)

ddingus 3y ago
Dramatically low basically equals the single color refresh rate multiplied by the number of base colors used to form color images.
- mdp2021 3y ago
  You seem to be suggesting "a collection of pigmented subcells similar to the traditional B/W cell". ACeP works differently: the pigments are in a single cell, and it is a matter of different densities, size, speed, electrical sensitivity per material (per pigment) that determines the procedure ("waveform") to obtain the wanted colour in a pixel. So, it does not seem linear at all.
  - ddingus 3y ago
    That was based on my tests with color displays from Waveshare, and as we have seen in the comments here, advances have been made. I still see multiple refresh cycles being needed for colors. The metrics are shorter, smaller on the very latest displays, and in my view fall short of motion capable in color. We do have, and have had, motion capable monochrome for a while now, given users accept a few trade-offs.
- dmitrygr 3y ago
  No. Much worse. Think 30 seconds for a 7-color display. (B&w can do under one second)
  - Qwertious 3y ago
    This is outdated and only true for older ACeP displays. The Gallery 3 screen can refresh fast enough (~1.5sec) to be usable in an e-note with color: https://youtu.be/V3jmmo23J5w?t=1202 https://youtu.be/V3jmmo23J5w?t=1202 And since it's true multi-color, it can refresh even faster by simply disabling the colors and refreshing in B&W (very slightly slower than monochrome screens though).
- Qwertious 3y ago
  This is no longer true - Gallery 3 screens are ACEP that can refresh in a second and a half. For instance the Bigme Galy is an e-reader based on the Gallery 3, and [as you can see](https://youtu.be/V3jmmo23J5w?t=1202 https://youtu.be/V3jmmo23J5w?t=1202) is perfectly functional for interactive use. It's still slightly higher than monochrome, but only by milliseconds. IMO, fast-ACeP is the future and will eventually kill CFA/Kaleido.
  - ddingus 3y ago
    Seems to me it remains largely true, just with much smaller numbers. That screen is nice! Real progress being made there.
Scene_Cast2 3y ago
Oh, interesting detail. I was looking towards the rumored Fujitsu Quaderno A4 Gen 3, which is supposed to have a Kaleido 3 color panel.
Qwertious 3y ago
Here's a diagram to help explain your point: https://etulipa.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/lightreflextion-CMY-RGB.png https://etulipa.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/lightreflexti... The one on the right is Kaleido (CFA tech). See how you lose 2/3 of the light? Monochrome (and ACEP etc) doesn't have that problem. Just CFA. (This diagram is from Etulipa, and is meant to explain a benefit of their billboard-sized passive displays compared to CFA tech; Etulipa tech is really cool but it's not suitable for e-readers or desktop monitors, as they found out the hard way back in ~2010.) (CFA = Color Filter Array)

ddingus 3y ago

Dramatically low basically equals the single color refresh rate multiplied by the number of base colors used to form color images.

mdp2021 3y ago
You seem to be suggesting "a collection of pigmented subcells similar to the traditional B/W cell". ACeP works differently: the pigments are in a single cell, and it is a matter of different densities, size, speed, electrical sensitivity per material (per pigment) that determines the procedure ("waveform") to obtain the wanted colour in a pixel. So, it does not seem linear at all.
- ddingus 3y ago
  That was based on my tests with color displays from Waveshare, and as we have seen in the comments here, advances have been made. I still see multiple refresh cycles being needed for colors. The metrics are shorter, smaller on the very latest displays, and in my view fall short of motion capable in color. We do have, and have had, motion capable monochrome for a while now, given users accept a few trade-offs.
dmitrygr 3y ago
No. Much worse. Think 30 seconds for a 7-color display. (B&w can do under one second)
- Qwertious 3y ago
  This is outdated and only true for older ACeP displays. The Gallery 3 screen can refresh fast enough (~1.5sec) to be usable in an e-note with color: https://youtu.be/V3jmmo23J5w?t=1202 https://youtu.be/V3jmmo23J5w?t=1202 And since it's true multi-color, it can refresh even faster by simply disabling the colors and refreshing in B&W (very slightly slower than monochrome screens though).
Qwertious 3y ago
This is no longer true - Gallery 3 screens are ACEP that can refresh in a second and a half. For instance the Bigme Galy is an e-reader based on the Gallery 3, and [as you can see](https://youtu.be/V3jmmo23J5w?t=1202 https://youtu.be/V3jmmo23J5w?t=1202) is perfectly functional for interactive use. It's still slightly higher than monochrome, but only by milliseconds. IMO, fast-ACeP is the future and will eventually kill CFA/Kaleido.
- ddingus 3y ago
  Seems to me it remains largely true, just with much smaller numbers. That screen is nice! Real progress being made there.

Scene_Cast2 3y ago

Oh, interesting detail. I was looking towards the rumored Fujitsu Quaderno A4 Gen 3, which is supposed to have a Kaleido 3 color panel.

Qwertious 3y ago

Here's a diagram to help explain your point: https://etulipa.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/lightreflextion-CMY-RGB.png https://etulipa.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/lightreflexti... The one on the right is Kaleido (CFA tech). See how you lose 2/3 of the light? Monochrome (and ACEP etc) doesn't have that problem. Just CFA. (This diagram is from Etulipa, and is meant to explain a benefit of their billboard-sized passive displays compared to CFA tech; Etulipa tech is really cool but it's not suitable for e-readers or desktop monitors, as they found out the hard way back in ~2010.) (CFA = Color Filter Array)