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E-bike and scooter riders are not “creating an awful risk for themselves”. Cars are creating that risk for them. And I don’t get it: you say e-bike drivers “co

E-bike and scooter riders are not “creating an awful risk for themselves”. Cars are creating that risk for them. And I don’t get it: you say e-bike drivers “constantly run stop signs”, but then a paragraph later you say that you also often run stop signs! What should I take away from this? That we should selectively enforce traffic laws against e-bikes but not against you?

schnable 3y ago
Yes, the e-bike drivers are creating the risk by riding against traffic and in crosswalks where turning traffic can't see them coming. This would be an issue even if all the other traffic was bikes and not cars -- though admittedly not as deadly.
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  They ride against traffic because most streets in NYC are one-way to accommodate cars.
ryantgtg 3y ago
Imagine, if you will, looking both ways and slowly rolling through a stop sign; and also imagine running a stop sign at full speed and not looking. Not all running stop signs are equal. It's not the law that matters. Also, cars aren't creating the risk. Drivers are.
- nativeit 3y ago
  Guns don’t kill people either, amirite?
hooverd 3y ago
Google Idaho stop. If anything it's pedestrians who are failing to look out for cyclists at intersections.
- mahkeiro 3y ago
  In most countries pedestrians have priority at crossing. Seems that a lot of people riding a bicycle want to have priority over all traffic (you can easily see that when bicycle and pedestrian have to share the same street, bicycle will use their "ring" all the time to make way…) The other day I was even hit by a bicycle in a pedestrian street as the guy was just slaloming at high speed.
  - fnfjfk 3y ago
    In NYC and particularly in Manhattan and the built up areas of other boroughs, almost every crossing is signaled and timed. This isn’t a suburb where pedestrians walk out into a crosswalk and traffic stops outside of the normal light cycle.
  - hooverd 3y ago
    Maybe the cars made him do that. /s.
blululu 3y ago
As per the OP this is an NYC specific phenomenon. The e-bike/moped delivery drivers will blast through stop signs and red lights at 20mph with pedestrians in the crosswalk. As a pedestrian having a bicyclist slow rolling a stop sign on pedals feels safe (they aren't that heavy or fast), but getting buzzed by a dude with a motorized vehicle rolling at 20 mph feels actively dangerous and I have seen enough crashes to think that this is not just an impression.
- hooverd 3y ago
  The prevailing opinion is that pedestrians should be thanking the person on the e-bike in that scenario for not driving a car.
  - jakelazaroff 3y ago
    All I can say is, as an NYC resident who occasionally takes a cab or borrows a friend’s car and does not ride any sort of bike, the vehicle that has the most net negative impact on my day-to-day life is the automobile.
- toyg 3y ago
  Not NYC specific: any European city of medium size has these now. They all, all, behave appallingly. Why? Because they can, no plates means no accountability and who doesn't like speed - wheels go brrrr! Occasionally they crash and die. At this point, to be honest, I'd be tempted to let Darwin do his thing, if it weren't for the fact that they traumatise pedestrians and drivers.
HFguy 3y ago
What the poster is saying is objectively true. At least in NYC. I would add they are particularly dangerous to pedestrians. Whether the poster has previously slow rolled through a stop sign or cars are dangerous to bikes are separate points. I would say e-bikes are not the root problem. They are fine. It is the drivers not following any rules is the primary problem.
- ambyra 3y ago
  Drivers don’t follow rules bc there’s no enforcement. E-bikes are grey area vehicles. There should be no gray areas. If you have a motor on your vehicle it’s a motorized vehicle and needs to be registered and plated, driven on the road, given tickets like any other vehicle.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > E-bikes are grey area vehicles. No, they aren’t, in most US jurisdictions, which have specific rules for motorized bicycles (and often distinct rules for electric one.) > If you have a motor on your vehicle it’s a motorized vehicle and needs to be registered and plated, driven on the road, given tickets like any other vehicle. The fact that you don’t like the specific rules for e-bikes doesn’t make them a “gray area”.
    - asoneth 3y ago
      > The fact that you don’t like the specific rules for e-bikes doesn’t make them a “gray area”. My understanding is that the rules in NYC governing e-bikes and electric mopeds were very fuzzy until around 2020, but there is still some uncertainty. Before 2020 most of the delivery "e-bikes" ridden in NYC were technically illegal and were subject to occasional/erratic police enforcement such as stings and seizures despite being about as ubiquitous as taxi cabs. This was controversial when I lived there. I no longer live in NYC but since then my understanding is that the city and state governments have worked with delivery riders to clarify the legal status of their vehicles but there is still a bit of "gray area" in practice.
alexpetralia 3y ago
This is a very uncharitable reading of what he wrote.
SkipperCat 3y ago
I said I "slow roll" thru stop signs. And and like most bikers, if you are at a stop sign and there's no peds and no oncoming cars, its pretty safe to go thru the stop sign. Just like how everyone jaywalks in NYC. If I get a ticket for that, I own it but at least I'm not putting other peds at risk. But the crux of the issue is that delivery ebike are riding recklessly. Any the majority reason for this is because they are paid by the number of deliveries they complete. This creates an incentive for them to take risks which a normal rider would not do. If the didn't have that incentive, they would probably operate in a much safer manner.
lokar 3y ago
Have you spent time in Manhattan? It’s common to get buzzed by bikes going 15mph+ down sidewalks on streets (not avenues) where the street is mostly clear (and cars don’t ever go very fast on streets anyway, they really can’t).
- davidf18 3y ago
  [dead]
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  Yes I have and no it’s not.
  - anotherhue 3y ago
    Happens to me a few times a week so thanks for the absolutism.
    - jakelazaroff 3y ago
      It’s not “absolutism” to say it’s not common.
labcomputer 3y ago
> And I don’t get it: you say e-bike drivers “constantly run stop signs”, but then a paragraph later you say that you also often run stop signs! What should I take away from this? That we should selectively enforce traffic laws against e-bikes but not against you? Legally there may be no difference between slowing to 2 mph (while yielding to traffic) and blowing through a stop sign at 20 mph. But I think you're smart enough to know what was meant by the person you're replying to--as a matter of physics and safety, those two things are completely different.
abeppu 3y ago
More than one thing can be true: - Cars can be dangerous for cyclists, even when those cyclists follow all the rules, as the article makes clear - E-bikes can also be dangerous for other road (or sidewalk) users, especially when they disregard the rules (riding on sidewalks etc). And these can _definitely_ be true in wildly different environments! Manhattan streets and an arterial road in Encinitas are very different.
mc32 3y ago
One is slowing down and is preparing to stop if need be, the other is weaving through traffic —one is more reckless than the other.
e40 3y ago
> Cars are creating that risk for them. What BS. It is their choice to do things dangerous to themselves and others. If the road is too unsafe, then don't use an ebike. Period. Putting pedestrians at risk is disgusting. When the scooter craze started, I watched in horror, during my 1 hour commute by walking, as they moved to the sidewalk. Whipping in and out of pedestrian traffic, I was bumped a few times, but had no collisions. Those collisions could have been fatal, btw, as the scooters were going 15-20 mph. I definitely read about local pedestrian/scooter collisions, some people being seriously hurt. It is illegal to ride them on the sidewalk where I am.
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  > It is their choice to do things dangerous to themselves and others. If the road is too unsafe, then don't use an ebike. Period. Putting pedestrians at risk is disgusting. Who do you think is making the road unsafe? What type of vehicle do you think results in the vast majority of pedestrian injuries and deaths?
  - frumper 3y ago
    I'd say that someone riding against traffic is making it unsafe for themselves and others.
    - jakelazaroff 3y ago
      Can you answer the question without moving the goalposts?
      - frumper 3y ago
        > They ride against traffic because most streets in NYC are one-way to accommodate cars. > Who do you think is making the road unsafe? The person riding against traffic is making it unsafe.
        jakelazaroff 3y ago
sydbarrett74 3y ago
Perhaps it's not either/or but both/and?

schnable 3y ago

Yes, the e-bike drivers are creating the risk by riding against traffic and in crosswalks where turning traffic can't see them coming. This would be an issue even if all the other traffic was bikes and not cars -- though admittedly not as deadly.

jakelazaroff 3y ago
They ride against traffic because most streets in NYC are one-way to accommodate cars.

ryantgtg 3y ago

Imagine, if you will, looking both ways and slowly rolling through a stop sign; and also imagine running a stop sign at full speed and not looking. Not all running stop signs are equal. It's not the law that matters. Also, cars aren't creating the risk. Drivers are.

nativeit 3y ago
Guns don’t kill people either, amirite?

hooverd 3y ago

Google Idaho stop. If anything it's pedestrians who are failing to look out for cyclists at intersections.

mahkeiro 3y ago
In most countries pedestrians have priority at crossing. Seems that a lot of people riding a bicycle want to have priority over all traffic (you can easily see that when bicycle and pedestrian have to share the same street, bicycle will use their "ring" all the time to make way…) The other day I was even hit by a bicycle in a pedestrian street as the guy was just slaloming at high speed.
- fnfjfk 3y ago
  In NYC and particularly in Manhattan and the built up areas of other boroughs, almost every crossing is signaled and timed. This isn’t a suburb where pedestrians walk out into a crosswalk and traffic stops outside of the normal light cycle.
- hooverd 3y ago
  Maybe the cars made him do that. /s.

blululu 3y ago

As per the OP this is an NYC specific phenomenon. The e-bike/moped delivery drivers will blast through stop signs and red lights at 20mph with pedestrians in the crosswalk. As a pedestrian having a bicyclist slow rolling a stop sign on pedals feels safe (they aren't that heavy or fast), but getting buzzed by a dude with a motorized vehicle rolling at 20 mph feels actively dangerous and I have seen enough crashes to think that this is not just an impression.

hooverd 3y ago
The prevailing opinion is that pedestrians should be thanking the person on the e-bike in that scenario for not driving a car.
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  All I can say is, as an NYC resident who occasionally takes a cab or borrows a friend’s car and does not ride any sort of bike, the vehicle that has the most net negative impact on my day-to-day life is the automobile.
toyg 3y ago
Not NYC specific: any European city of medium size has these now. They all, all, behave appallingly. Why? Because they can, no plates means no accountability and who doesn't like speed - wheels go brrrr! Occasionally they crash and die. At this point, to be honest, I'd be tempted to let Darwin do his thing, if it weren't for the fact that they traumatise pedestrians and drivers.

HFguy 3y ago

What the poster is saying is objectively true. At least in NYC. I would add they are particularly dangerous to pedestrians. Whether the poster has previously slow rolled through a stop sign or cars are dangerous to bikes are separate points. I would say e-bikes are not the root problem. They are fine. It is the drivers not following any rules is the primary problem.

ambyra 3y ago
Drivers don’t follow rules bc there’s no enforcement. E-bikes are grey area vehicles. There should be no gray areas. If you have a motor on your vehicle it’s a motorized vehicle and needs to be registered and plated, driven on the road, given tickets like any other vehicle.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > E-bikes are grey area vehicles. No, they aren’t, in most US jurisdictions, which have specific rules for motorized bicycles (and often distinct rules for electric one.) > If you have a motor on your vehicle it’s a motorized vehicle and needs to be registered and plated, driven on the road, given tickets like any other vehicle. The fact that you don’t like the specific rules for e-bikes doesn’t make them a “gray area”.
  - asoneth 3y ago
    > The fact that you don’t like the specific rules for e-bikes doesn’t make them a “gray area”. My understanding is that the rules in NYC governing e-bikes and electric mopeds were very fuzzy until around 2020, but there is still some uncertainty. Before 2020 most of the delivery "e-bikes" ridden in NYC were technically illegal and were subject to occasional/erratic police enforcement such as stings and seizures despite being about as ubiquitous as taxi cabs. This was controversial when I lived there. I no longer live in NYC but since then my understanding is that the city and state governments have worked with delivery riders to clarify the legal status of their vehicles but there is still a bit of "gray area" in practice.

alexpetralia 3y ago

This is a very uncharitable reading of what he wrote.

SkipperCat 3y ago

I said I "slow roll" thru stop signs. And and like most bikers, if you are at a stop sign and there's no peds and no oncoming cars, its pretty safe to go thru the stop sign. Just like how everyone jaywalks in NYC. If I get a ticket for that, I own it but at least I'm not putting other peds at risk. But the crux of the issue is that delivery ebike are riding recklessly. Any the majority reason for this is because they are paid by the number of deliveries they complete. This creates an incentive for them to take risks which a normal rider would not do. If the didn't have that incentive, they would probably operate in a much safer manner.

lokar 3y ago

Have you spent time in Manhattan? It’s common to get buzzed by bikes going 15mph+ down sidewalks on streets (not avenues) where the street is mostly clear (and cars don’t ever go very fast on streets anyway, they really can’t).

davidf18 3y ago
[dead]
jakelazaroff 3y ago
Yes I have and no it’s not.
- anotherhue 3y ago
  Happens to me a few times a week so thanks for the absolutism.
  - jakelazaroff 3y ago
    It’s not “absolutism” to say it’s not common.

labcomputer 3y ago

> And I don’t get it: you say e-bike drivers “constantly run stop signs”, but then a paragraph later you say that you also often run stop signs! What should I take away from this? That we should selectively enforce traffic laws against e-bikes but not against you? Legally there may be no difference between slowing to 2 mph (while yielding to traffic) and blowing through a stop sign at 20 mph. But I think you're smart enough to know what was meant by the person you're replying to--as a matter of physics and safety, those two things are completely different.

abeppu 3y ago

More than one thing can be true: - Cars can be dangerous for cyclists, even when those cyclists follow all the rules, as the article makes clear - E-bikes can also be dangerous for other road (or sidewalk) users, especially when they disregard the rules (riding on sidewalks etc). And these can _definitely_ be true in wildly different environments! Manhattan streets and an arterial road in Encinitas are very different.

mc32 3y ago

One is slowing down and is preparing to stop if need be, the other is weaving through traffic —one is more reckless than the other.

e40 3y ago

> Cars are creating that risk for them. What BS. It is their choice to do things dangerous to themselves and others. If the road is too unsafe, then don't use an ebike. Period. Putting pedestrians at risk is disgusting. When the scooter craze started, I watched in horror, during my 1 hour commute by walking, as they moved to the sidewalk. Whipping in and out of pedestrian traffic, I was bumped a few times, but had no collisions. Those collisions could have been fatal, btw, as the scooters were going 15-20 mph. I definitely read about local pedestrian/scooter collisions, some people being seriously hurt. It is illegal to ride them on the sidewalk where I am.

jakelazaroff 3y ago
> It is their choice to do things dangerous to themselves and others. If the road is too unsafe, then don't use an ebike. Period. Putting pedestrians at risk is disgusting. Who do you think is making the road unsafe? What type of vehicle do you think results in the vast majority of pedestrian injuries and deaths?
- frumper 3y ago
  I'd say that someone riding against traffic is making it unsafe for themselves and others.
  - jakelazaroff 3y ago
    Can you answer the question without moving the goalposts?
    - frumper 3y ago
      > They ride against traffic because most streets in NYC are one-way to accommodate cars. > Who do you think is making the road unsafe? The person riding against traffic is making it unsafe.
      - jakelazaroff 3y ago

sydbarrett74 3y ago

Perhaps it's not either/or but both/and?