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> Commercial ovens have no or minimal heat insulation This seems counter intuitive to me. Why would I not want more insulation in an oven that's going to be us

> Commercial ovens have no or minimal heat insulation This seems counter intuitive to me. Why would I not want more insulation in an oven that's going to be used a lot more? Seems like the cost of the insulation would be amortized more quickly than in a home kitchen, since a commercial oven is presumably being used a lot more?

masklinn 3y ago
Possibly because you want very responsive temperature control, if the oven has a lot of insulation it's more efficient but it responds much more slowly to temperature decreases.
- amluto 3y ago
  This should be straightforwardly solvable with an improved control algorithm. A well insulated oven cools much more slowly with the door closed, so a control algorithm can’t recover as quickly if it overshoots the set temperature.
  - masklinn 3y ago
    It's not just a question of control algorithm, if have one dish you need high, and the next you need lower, you have not overshot anything but you need the oven to come down. No control algorithm will magic that out.
    - amluto 3y ago
      An exhaust fan, on the other hand, will do a great job. And some ovens have an exhaust fan for smoke control (hah, I grew up with one of those and I miss it) and to reduce humidity in the oven when desired (nice, but not nearly as nice as the extinct Thermador system). Admittedly, the ducted exhaust fan is not nearly as useful in a commercial setting where the oven is under a hood.
Swizec 3y ago
> Why would I not want more insulation in an oven that's going to be used a lot more? Primarily different regulations. Everyone interacting with a commercial oven is a trained professional getting paid to be there and the space is designed to a certified standard. This means you can focus more on pure performance and less on liability stuff. And commercial equipment, because it needs to last long, is optimized for maintenance. I imagine insulation makes it harder to access and clean (or fix) the internals of an oven. Not to mention how often you’d have to change the insulation to keep your kitchen up to health standards.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Insulation on a home oven is to protect the kids (by trying to keep the outside from being finger burning hot) and to let the heat slowly dissipate into the kitchen. A commercial oven runs all day when it is being used, so it will eventually get hot no matter how much insulation you have unless it's somehow cooled or can send waste heat elsewhere.
  - amluto 3y ago
    The outside of an oven running for a long time will tend toward a steady state temperature at which heat is lost from the surface to the room (by radiation, conduction, convection, etc) is the same as the rate at which heat is added to the surface (from loss through the walls). Increasing insulation will decrease steady state temperature, and keeping a safe exterior temperature matters even in a commercial kitchen for safety and for comfort (even if no one cares about the comfort of the cooks). One can also actively cool the exterior surface by forcing air through a gap in a double wall oven. Many residential ovens do this. As far as I know, the actual material difference with residential ovens is that most of them are mean to be installed in cabinets, which severely restricts the amount of heat that can be safely dissipated through the walls.
dragonwriter 3y ago
Insulation distributes heat release over time, at the cost of temperature control. If its going to be used all the time, especially with multiple units, distributing release over time doesn’t change much but the delay between first turning it on and full effect to the surroundings, and the impact on temperature control is still there. Insulation is only effective with intermittent use.
- LorenPechtel 3y ago
  No. If it was only effective with intermittent use then we wouldn't insulate water heaters as they're 24/7. Insulation slows heat flow and thus means the hot side rises to closer to the temperature of the heat source and thus there is less energy transfer.
  - masklinn 3y ago
    > If it was only effective with intermittent use then we wouldn't insulate water heaters as they're 24/7. Water heaters are not running 24/7. The entire point of water heater insulation is that you run them to heat up the water in the tank, then the water sits there at temperature, and when needed it has a fast response time (and also actually provides hot water as the heating loops generally don't have the heating capacity to bring the water up from ambient or sometimes just above freezing to sanitary at the flow rates users ask for).
  - Qwertious 3y ago
    >No. If it was only effective with intermittent use then we wouldn't insulate water heaters as they're 24/7. Hey, if your taps are emitting a stream of hot water 24/7 then you should call a plumber. Expect your water bill to drop massively.
- vanviegen 3y ago
  Yes, but no. Insulation helps maintain a temperature difference. Assuming the kitchen is not perfectly isolated itself, and probably even has at least some ventilation, if not airco, it will help keep the oven warm and the rest of the kitchen cool, even if it's being used 24x7.
bombcar 3y ago
Commercial kitchens that want insulation around the oven install it in the walls or whatever it's being mounted in. Houses aren't built for that. See https://deqonline.com/blog/post/7-reasons-not-to-use-a-commercial-range-in-your-residential-kitchen https://deqonline.com/blog/post/7-reasons-not-to-use-a-comme... for some example issues that you might not be aware of if you blindly ran in with "commercial better". If you fully understand them (you worked as a line cook for awhile, etc) and compensate for them, it might be a fine option. If you need 500,000 BTU.
PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
The insulation in non-commercial units is mostly to do with fire-safety. In a home kitchen it is likely the unit will be installed with wood-ish cabinets immediately adjacent to it. This is very much less likely in a commercial kitchen.
willcipriano 3y ago
Every order you open the oven up twice or so. Insulation probably doesn't matter if the door is open 20% of the time.

masklinn 3y ago

Possibly because you want very responsive temperature control, if the oven has a lot of insulation it's more efficient but it responds much more slowly to temperature decreases.

amluto 3y ago
This should be straightforwardly solvable with an improved control algorithm. A well insulated oven cools much more slowly with the door closed, so a control algorithm can’t recover as quickly if it overshoots the set temperature.
- masklinn 3y ago
  It's not just a question of control algorithm, if have one dish you need high, and the next you need lower, you have not overshot anything but you need the oven to come down. No control algorithm will magic that out.
  - amluto 3y ago
    An exhaust fan, on the other hand, will do a great job. And some ovens have an exhaust fan for smoke control (hah, I grew up with one of those and I miss it) and to reduce humidity in the oven when desired (nice, but not nearly as nice as the extinct Thermador system). Admittedly, the ducted exhaust fan is not nearly as useful in a commercial setting where the oven is under a hood.

Swizec 3y ago

> Why would I not want more insulation in an oven that's going to be used a lot more? Primarily different regulations. Everyone interacting with a commercial oven is a trained professional getting paid to be there and the space is designed to a certified standard. This means you can focus more on pure performance and less on liability stuff. And commercial equipment, because it needs to last long, is optimized for maintenance. I imagine insulation makes it harder to access and clean (or fix) the internals of an oven. Not to mention how often you’d have to change the insulation to keep your kitchen up to health standards.

bombcar 3y ago
Insulation on a home oven is to protect the kids (by trying to keep the outside from being finger burning hot) and to let the heat slowly dissipate into the kitchen. A commercial oven runs all day when it is being used, so it will eventually get hot no matter how much insulation you have unless it's somehow cooled or can send waste heat elsewhere.
- amluto 3y ago
  The outside of an oven running for a long time will tend toward a steady state temperature at which heat is lost from the surface to the room (by radiation, conduction, convection, etc) is the same as the rate at which heat is added to the surface (from loss through the walls). Increasing insulation will decrease steady state temperature, and keeping a safe exterior temperature matters even in a commercial kitchen for safety and for comfort (even if no one cares about the comfort of the cooks). One can also actively cool the exterior surface by forcing air through a gap in a double wall oven. Many residential ovens do this. As far as I know, the actual material difference with residential ovens is that most of them are mean to be installed in cabinets, which severely restricts the amount of heat that can be safely dissipated through the walls.

dragonwriter 3y ago

Insulation distributes heat release over time, at the cost of temperature control. If its going to be used all the time, especially with multiple units, distributing release over time doesn’t change much but the delay between first turning it on and full effect to the surroundings, and the impact on temperature control is still there. Insulation is only effective with intermittent use.

LorenPechtel 3y ago
No. If it was only effective with intermittent use then we wouldn't insulate water heaters as they're 24/7. Insulation slows heat flow and thus means the hot side rises to closer to the temperature of the heat source and thus there is less energy transfer.
- masklinn 3y ago
  > If it was only effective with intermittent use then we wouldn't insulate water heaters as they're 24/7. Water heaters are not running 24/7. The entire point of water heater insulation is that you run them to heat up the water in the tank, then the water sits there at temperature, and when needed it has a fast response time (and also actually provides hot water as the heating loops generally don't have the heating capacity to bring the water up from ambient or sometimes just above freezing to sanitary at the flow rates users ask for).
- Qwertious 3y ago
  >No. If it was only effective with intermittent use then we wouldn't insulate water heaters as they're 24/7. Hey, if your taps are emitting a stream of hot water 24/7 then you should call a plumber. Expect your water bill to drop massively.
vanviegen 3y ago
Yes, but no. Insulation helps maintain a temperature difference. Assuming the kitchen is not perfectly isolated itself, and probably even has at least some ventilation, if not airco, it will help keep the oven warm and the rest of the kitchen cool, even if it's being used 24x7.

bombcar 3y ago

Commercial kitchens that want insulation around the oven install it in the walls or whatever it's being mounted in. Houses aren't built for that. See https://deqonline.com/blog/post/7-reasons-not-to-use-a-commercial-range-in-your-residential-kitchen https://deqonline.com/blog/post/7-reasons-not-to-use-a-comme... for some example issues that you might not be aware of if you blindly ran in with "commercial better". If you fully understand them (you worked as a line cook for awhile, etc) and compensate for them, it might be a fine option. If you need 500,000 BTU.

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago

The insulation in non-commercial units is mostly to do with fire-safety. In a home kitchen it is likely the unit will be installed with wood-ish cabinets immediately adjacent to it. This is very much less likely in a commercial kitchen.

willcipriano 3y ago

Every order you open the oven up twice or so. Insulation probably doesn't matter if the door is open 20% of the time.