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Q: Where is the electricity coming from to recharge the batteries? "Powered by electricity" doesn't necessarily mean "clean", years ago I visited friends in Ge

Q: Where is the electricity coming from to recharge the batteries? "Powered by electricity" doesn't necessarily mean "clean", years ago I visited friends in Germany who were within cycling distance of an open-cast lignite mine. It had its own (lignite-fueled) power station on-site, which powered much of the equipment. Will never forget climbing steps up the earthen embankment at the edge of the mine to reach a viewing platform. The scale of the destruction was literally breathtaking.

adrianN 3y ago
It’s talking about Australia. If they have one thing it’s sunlight.
- pluies 3y ago
  Also a looooot of coal. https://www.energy.gov.au/data/australian-electricity-generation-fuel-mix https://www.energy.gov.au/data/australian-electricity-genera...
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    They have 30GW of renewables in the AEMO connection pipeline at the moment, ~7GW greater than entire continent coal generation (which will add to current renewables capacity) [1] [2]. Batteries are scaling up to consume grid services revenue and drive out thermal generation [3]. Also of note: "NEM total emissions declined this quarter to the lowest Q2 level on record, of 28.7 million tonnes of carbon dioxide, 6.6 per cent lower than Q2 2022, whilst emissions intensity dropped 4.3 per cent to 0.61 tCO2 e/MWh." "“Rooftop solar generation increased 30 per cent from Q2 2022, which reduced electricity demand from the grid. Coupled with higher renewable output, wholesale prices were zero or negative nine per cent of the quarter throughout the NEM, a new Q2 record,” Ms Mouchaileh said." This bears repeating: 9 percent of the time, the wholesale cost of power is zero or negative. [1] https://www.energymagazine.com.au/aemo-quarterly-energy-report-sees-a-drop-in-electricity-prices/ https://www.energymagazine.com.au/aemo-quarterly-energy-repo... [2] https://opennem.org.au/facilities/au/?status=operating https://opennem.org.au/facilities/au/?status=operating [3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-04-04/how-tesla-tsla-elon-musk-are-helping-australia-quit-coal-power https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-04-04/how-tesla... | https://archive.is/egMXl https://archive.is/egMXl
    - logifail 3y ago
      > They have 30GW of renewables in the AEMO connection pipeline at the moment, ~7GW greater than entire continent coal generation (which will add to current renewables capacity) [1] [2]. Batteries are scaling up to consume grid services revenue and drive out thermal generation [3]. Yet they are still digging coal out of the ground - for export. Australia exported USD 75 billion worth of coal in 2022.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    We should try to keep it that way.
  - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
    If they discovered a new source of coal, as large, clean and easy to mine as their best ever existing coal seams, they'd be financially better off putting solar PV over the top of it than mining the coal seam. So that problem should solve itself if they let the market do its thing and don't tilt it to help out coal mine owners.
ImaCake 3y ago
I imagine a mix of solar and natural gas. A lot of natural gas is mined in Western Australia and Australian mines tend to be in hot sunny places. Coal mining isn’t BHPs business so that seems unlikely.
- gimmeThaBeet 3y ago
  Uhhh, BHP is like one of the largest coal miners on the planet. Though, it's just one of their operating units (mainly iron and copper).
  - mkj 3y ago
    The iron ore mines are nowhere near the coal mines, but are near the North West Shelf gas area.
    - gimmeThaBeet 3y ago
      Nah, I know, the iron is in WA, iirc the main coal mines are in Queensland and some in NSW. The main point was the comment that coal isn't BHP's business, when they've gotta be the largest coal miner in Australia.
CharlieDigital 3y ago
> "Powered by electricity" doesn't necessarily mean "clean" "Powered by electricity" is an abstraction that lets you move towards clean sources of energy over time and zero emissions. Even if the source of that electricity is dirty today and shifts emissions, it can become clean and zero emission. On the other hand "Powered by gasoline" or "Powered by diesel" will always be dirty, even with bio-diesel.
- hardware2win 3y ago
  Thats interesting point, thanks.
- runako 3y ago
  Came to say this. I would add that "powered by electric" also typically means that power was generated at an industrial-scale facility and so is likely inherently more efficient than on-site generation. Powering a vehicle with electricity generated from diesel is (or can be upgraded to be, over time) more efficient than powering the same vehicles using diesel powertrains.
a_c_s 3y ago
An electric car powered by coal is still cleaner overall than one powered by gasoline. https://www.nationalobserver.com/2021/10/26/analysis/dirty-energy-coal-vs-cars#:~:text=Coal%20power%20plants%2C%20in%20contrast,same%20amount%20of%20useful%20energy https://www.nationalobserver.com/2021/10/26/analysis/dirty-e.... https://www.forbes.com/sites/enriquedans/2018/08/19/myths-and-shibboleths-about-electric-vehicles-the-long-tailpipe-theory/?sh=1d7e30b27f26 https://www.forbes.com/sites/enriquedans/2018/08/19/myths-an... https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/?sh=6b5e383e2320 https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electr...
- gambiting 3y ago
  Yes, almost always. But it's important to point out the edge cases. Where I'm from the largest power plant in the country is also insanely polluting - Bełchatow power plant burns lignite for electricity and the CO2 emissions are just bananas. The official number is around 1.7kg(!!!!!!!) Of CO2 for every kWh of electricity produced[1]. If you run your electric car using energy from that power plant then yes, it pollutes more than almost any petrol/diesel vehicle bar some sports cars and large trucks. But that's a curiosity, an edge case, and if anything it proves that Bełchatow should be closed down immediately and not that EVs are a bad thing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%C5%82chat%C3%B3w_Power_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%C5%82chat%C3%B3w_Power_Stat...
- logifail 3y ago
  > An electric car powered by coal is still cleaner overall than one powered by gasoline I'm sceptical that we know enough about the energy and resource mix in use across our global supply chains to be anywhere near that confident. Look up Enrico Mariutti and his thoughts on the photovoltaic lifecycle figures ( mentioned in "China's dirty fuel advanage" - https://public.substack.com/p/solar-panels-more-carbon-intensive https://public.substack.com/p/solar-panels-more-carbon-inten... )
  - logifail 3y ago
    "You glide silently out of the Tesla (TSLA.O) showroom in your sleek new electric Model 3, satisfied you're looking great and doing your bit for the planet. But keep going - you'll have to drive another 13,500 miles (21,725 km) before you're doing less harm to the environment than a gas-guzzling saloon."[0] Appreciate this may be desperately off-message here, but here's the rub: what we change in Europe and North America isn't going to fix anything unless we take China, India, and all the rest of the world with us. "Most of the electricity in China comes from coal, which accounted for 62% of the electricity generation mix in 2021"[1] "China permits two new coal power plants per week in 2022"[2] "China ramps up coal power despite carbon neutral pledges. Local governments approved more coal power in first three months of 2023 than all of 2021."[3] If we really care about fixing the planet, China and India are where we should be looking. Teslas in California are an irrelevance. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-d... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China [2] https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/china-permits-two-new-coal-power-plants-per-week-in-2022/ https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/china-permits-two-... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/24/china-ramps-up-coal-power-despite-carbon-neutral-pledges https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/24/china-ramps-up...
jacquesm 3y ago
I've been there too, it's the saddest view, maybe only on par with the destruction in Northern Canada due to fracking. And likely in Africa there are similar sites but I haven't seen those in person, just online and photos do not do this kind of damage any justice. If you haven't seen any of this try anyway: https://priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2012/07/tar_sands.jpg https://priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2012/07/tar_sands.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Panorama_2_Tagebau_Hambach.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Panorama...
_hypx 3y ago
This story is Tesla propaganda by a Tesla propagandist. The author of the piece wants every EV maker other than Tesla to go fail. Look at the history of articles the person wrote. No surprise, it’s another attack on an alternative green technology. I doubt the guy even cares about green technology other than what can promote Tesla. There’s no reason to believe that this a serious attempt to go green. The vehicles are already diesel-electric so it is simply a matter of hooking them up to electricity. And since diesel is not that cheap, you can get save money with an electrified system, provided you have no interest in ensuring green electricity.

adrianN 3y ago

It’s talking about Australia. If they have one thing it’s sunlight.

pluies 3y ago
Also a looooot of coal. https://www.energy.gov.au/data/australian-electricity-generation-fuel-mix https://www.energy.gov.au/data/australian-electricity-genera...
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  They have 30GW of renewables in the AEMO connection pipeline at the moment, ~7GW greater than entire continent coal generation (which will add to current renewables capacity) [1] [2]. Batteries are scaling up to consume grid services revenue and drive out thermal generation [3]. Also of note: "NEM total emissions declined this quarter to the lowest Q2 level on record, of 28.7 million tonnes of carbon dioxide, 6.6 per cent lower than Q2 2022, whilst emissions intensity dropped 4.3 per cent to 0.61 tCO2 e/MWh." "“Rooftop solar generation increased 30 per cent from Q2 2022, which reduced electricity demand from the grid. Coupled with higher renewable output, wholesale prices were zero or negative nine per cent of the quarter throughout the NEM, a new Q2 record,” Ms Mouchaileh said." This bears repeating: 9 percent of the time, the wholesale cost of power is zero or negative. [1] https://www.energymagazine.com.au/aemo-quarterly-energy-report-sees-a-drop-in-electricity-prices/ https://www.energymagazine.com.au/aemo-quarterly-energy-repo... [2] https://opennem.org.au/facilities/au/?status=operating https://opennem.org.au/facilities/au/?status=operating [3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-04-04/how-tesla-tsla-elon-musk-are-helping-australia-quit-coal-power https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-04-04/how-tesla... | https://archive.is/egMXl https://archive.is/egMXl
  - logifail 3y ago
    > They have 30GW of renewables in the AEMO connection pipeline at the moment, ~7GW greater than entire continent coal generation (which will add to current renewables capacity) [1] [2]. Batteries are scaling up to consume grid services revenue and drive out thermal generation [3]. Yet they are still digging coal out of the ground - for export. Australia exported USD 75 billion worth of coal in 2022.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  We should try to keep it that way.
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  If they discovered a new source of coal, as large, clean and easy to mine as their best ever existing coal seams, they'd be financially better off putting solar PV over the top of it than mining the coal seam. So that problem should solve itself if they let the market do its thing and don't tilt it to help out coal mine owners.

ImaCake 3y ago

I imagine a mix of solar and natural gas. A lot of natural gas is mined in Western Australia and Australian mines tend to be in hot sunny places. Coal mining isn’t BHPs business so that seems unlikely.

gimmeThaBeet 3y ago
Uhhh, BHP is like one of the largest coal miners on the planet. Though, it's just one of their operating units (mainly iron and copper).
- mkj 3y ago
  The iron ore mines are nowhere near the coal mines, but are near the North West Shelf gas area.
  - gimmeThaBeet 3y ago
    Nah, I know, the iron is in WA, iirc the main coal mines are in Queensland and some in NSW. The main point was the comment that coal isn't BHP's business, when they've gotta be the largest coal miner in Australia.

CharlieDigital 3y ago

> "Powered by electricity" doesn't necessarily mean "clean" "Powered by electricity" is an abstraction that lets you move towards clean sources of energy over time and zero emissions. Even if the source of that electricity is dirty today and shifts emissions, it can become clean and zero emission. On the other hand "Powered by gasoline" or "Powered by diesel" will always be dirty, even with bio-diesel.

hardware2win 3y ago
Thats interesting point, thanks.
runako 3y ago
Came to say this. I would add that "powered by electric" also typically means that power was generated at an industrial-scale facility and so is likely inherently more efficient than on-site generation. Powering a vehicle with electricity generated from diesel is (or can be upgraded to be, over time) more efficient than powering the same vehicles using diesel powertrains.

a_c_s 3y ago

An electric car powered by coal is still cleaner overall than one powered by gasoline. https://www.nationalobserver.com/2021/10/26/analysis/dirty-energy-coal-vs-cars#:~:text=Coal%20power%20plants%2C%20in%20contrast,same%20amount%20of%20useful%20energy https://www.nationalobserver.com/2021/10/26/analysis/dirty-e.... https://www.forbes.com/sites/enriquedans/2018/08/19/myths-and-shibboleths-about-electric-vehicles-the-long-tailpipe-theory/?sh=1d7e30b27f26 https://www.forbes.com/sites/enriquedans/2018/08/19/myths-an... https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/?sh=6b5e383e2320 https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electr...

gambiting 3y ago
Yes, almost always. But it's important to point out the edge cases. Where I'm from the largest power plant in the country is also insanely polluting - Bełchatow power plant burns lignite for electricity and the CO2 emissions are just bananas. The official number is around 1.7kg(!!!!!!!) Of CO2 for every kWh of electricity produced[1]. If you run your electric car using energy from that power plant then yes, it pollutes more than almost any petrol/diesel vehicle bar some sports cars and large trucks. But that's a curiosity, an edge case, and if anything it proves that Bełchatow should be closed down immediately and not that EVs are a bad thing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%C5%82chat%C3%B3w_Power_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%C5%82chat%C3%B3w_Power_Stat...
logifail 3y ago
> An electric car powered by coal is still cleaner overall than one powered by gasoline I'm sceptical that we know enough about the energy and resource mix in use across our global supply chains to be anywhere near that confident. Look up Enrico Mariutti and his thoughts on the photovoltaic lifecycle figures ( mentioned in "China's dirty fuel advanage" - https://public.substack.com/p/solar-panels-more-carbon-intensive https://public.substack.com/p/solar-panels-more-carbon-inten... )
- logifail 3y ago
  "You glide silently out of the Tesla (TSLA.O) showroom in your sleek new electric Model 3, satisfied you're looking great and doing your bit for the planet. But keep going - you'll have to drive another 13,500 miles (21,725 km) before you're doing less harm to the environment than a gas-guzzling saloon."[0] Appreciate this may be desperately off-message here, but here's the rub: what we change in Europe and North America isn't going to fix anything unless we take China, India, and all the rest of the world with us. "Most of the electricity in China comes from coal, which accounted for 62% of the electricity generation mix in 2021"[1] "China permits two new coal power plants per week in 2022"[2] "China ramps up coal power despite carbon neutral pledges. Local governments approved more coal power in first three months of 2023 than all of 2021."[3] If we really care about fixing the planet, China and India are where we should be looking. Teslas in California are an irrelevance. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-d... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China [2] https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/china-permits-two-new-coal-power-plants-per-week-in-2022/ https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/china-permits-two-... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/24/china-ramps-up-coal-power-despite-carbon-neutral-pledges https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/24/china-ramps-up...

jacquesm 3y ago

I've been there too, it's the saddest view, maybe only on par with the destruction in Northern Canada due to fracking. And likely in Africa there are similar sites but I haven't seen those in person, just online and photos do not do this kind of damage any justice. If you haven't seen any of this try anyway: https://priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2012/07/tar_sands.jpg https://priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2012/07/tar_sands.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Panorama_2_Tagebau_Hambach.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Panorama...

_hypx 3y ago

This story is Tesla propaganda by a Tesla propagandist. The author of the piece wants every EV maker other than Tesla to go fail. Look at the history of articles the person wrote. No surprise, it’s another attack on an alternative green technology. I doubt the guy even cares about green technology other than what can promote Tesla. There’s no reason to believe that this a serious attempt to go green. The vehicles are already diesel-electric so it is simply a matter of hooking them up to electricity. And since diesel is not that cheap, you can get save money with an electrified system, provided you have no interest in ensuring green electricity.