6 ms·

You're not asking non-power users how they feel, are you? 2000 to XP was a big change. So much so that many people reverted to "Classic" mode as soon as they c

You're not asking non-power users how they feel, are you? 2000 to XP was a big change. So much so that many people reverted to "Classic" mode as soon as they could do so. XP to Vista wasn't even accepted by most users. I have no idea how many old XP users went to OSX like I did, but I would posit that the number is not zero. Vista/XP to 7 was also a decent sized change, as I learn anytime I've attempted to verbally explain where a particular setting is and realize that it could be called anything. Unlike Vista, this has nothing to do with the quality of the OS, as Windows 7 is very good. However I can't help thinking that at least some users have gone OSX from this change as well.

dpark 15y ago
> 2000 to XP was a big change. So much so that many people reverted to "Classic" mode as soon as they could do so. "Classic" mode only changed the way the OS looked. It had nothing to do with the functionality, and certainly didn't change whether the user had to "re-learn" the OS. > XP to Vista wasn't even accepted by most users. How did users have to "re-learn", though? Vista was certainly not adopted at the rate that Microsoft had hoped, but whether users accept the product is a different question from whether they have to "re-learn the OS". > Vista/XP to 7 was also a decent sized change, as I learn anytime I've attempted to verbally explain where a particular setting is and realize that it could be called anything. They did move some settings (can't recall if this was actually Vista or 7). I would hardly say that this required re-learning the OS, though. I will admit that one of the first things I always do is switch the Control Panel to "Large Icons" rather than "Category". P.S. Disclaimer: MSFT employee
- MatthewPhillips 15y ago
  The change in taskbar buttons was absolutely massive. Never make the mistake of confusing your ability to learn interfaces with what the general consumer knows. The general consumer doesn't find computers intuitive -- full stop. Everything they know is learned; everything.
  - dpark 15y ago
    Getting rid of the labels was, I think, a change of minimal impact. I agree that grouping them was a pretty significant change, though, so that's a good example. I don't think any of the examples so far justify the claim that users have to "re-learn the OS" every version, though. It's a sensationalist claim with pretty much no backing. Most of the changes have been very incremental. Users have moved straight from XP to Win 7 in droves, and few people have complained about having to "re-learn the OS", despite it being a jump of not just one by two major versions.
    - MatthewPhillips 15y ago
      I think you are speaking from the position of a person who understands metaphors such as the task bar. Most users do not. Users only understand the most primitive of abstractions; they understand that a button is a button, but what the button does is only learned from experience (good labels help, of course). The change to the grouping-based icons on the taskbar absolutely forced users to relearn. See to you the fact that the buttons are in the same place as the old ones is an indicator that they have similar functionality; the typical user does not make these connections at all. They only know that the old task buttons are gone, and replaced with something they don't know how to use (yet). Now the level of change for this is much smaller than some other changes. Most users figured it out, many on their own (but many did not). I only used this example to demonstrate how things that are obvious and simple to you are massive barriers to common consumers.
      - dpark 15y ago
        There's a large area between "power user" and "computer illiterate". I have no doubt that there were some users who were so confused by the taskbar grouping that they never learned the new behavior, but I cannot believe that this was a common response. (Wouldn't those people actually return their PCs to the store?) Sorry, but just I can't accept that the vast majority of computer users are morons who can't understand it at all when interfaces change and have to start at square one every time. This is too cynical. The taskbar grouping was not that big of a change. Users look for icons in the taskbar, so dropping the labels was pretty minor. The grouping behavior itself was quite discoverable. If you ask an XP user who's just switched to Win7 to open a couple of word documents, and a web browser, and a few more things (enough to trigger grouping), and then ask them to go back to the word document, they'll be able to do it. They'll look in the task bar, click on the icon for Word, and then when the window thumbnails pop up, they's say "what's this?" and then click on one of the thumbnails. Functionality discovered. Yes, there's some initial confusion, but I'd hardly call it a "re-learning" of the entire OS. I also can't believe that Microsoft would have added the grouping if focus groups showed that average users were so lost that it was like using a new OS. There's not enough value added by grouping to ship it if it significantly hurt typical users' experiences.
- tuple 15y ago
  Disclaimer: former MCSE who quit administering windows altogether. A minor aesthetic change which requires a minor intuitive leap for the power user is a major change for most home users. Sure, the steering wheel is on the other side of the car, but thats minor. Except that now the user has to learn how to drive on the other side of the road. I loaded up windows 7 to look. Where's add/remove software? Wait, that changed and I need to set the control panel to classic to see it. Uh, where's classic mode at. Turns out you select the drop down box to Large/Small Icons for it to change the icon selection entirely. What? I spent a while longer searching for where to install OS components (IIS, etc). Minor irritants to me. Major headaches for my Father, Sister, Brother, etc. Even moreso when they call the family tech who can't figure what the hell they're talking about. I change to the interface IS a change to the OS as far as all by %1 of users are concerned.
  - microkid 15y ago
    When you click Start and see a textbox which is labeled search, do you not think, what if I type "add remove". Google has taught me this, so when I see search I expect to enter keywords or search criteria and that expected results are returned. Guess what it works. Classic what? Click what? Where's what? Just search for it. Implying the rest just seems archaic, especially from a user perspective.
    - run4yourlives 15y ago
      Just search for it. Have you used an OS prior to Windows 7 and/or OSX? Search on windows actually working is a huge step forward. Many users have simply not adapted to this actually being something worth trying.
      - uxp 15y ago
        I'm one of those people. I switched to OS X somewhere around XP SP3. Have never used Vista on any of my own machines, and only run Win7 on a VM to get access to IE 8 and 9. Search on Windows is horribly broken. One of the first "shortcuts" I learned on OS X was Cmd+Space and typing out the application I wanted to run. Spotlight immediately brought up what I wanted. Windows never did that for me, or spent 45 seconds or more with a spinning hourglass to return a document that happened to be named similar to a program I wanted. I don't care if it works better now, they've set a precedent in my mind that it is broken, because it was broken for the ~15 years I used their OSes.
hessenwolf 15y ago
Speaking of power users, where can I switch off the ribbon, please?
- Luyt 15y ago
  http://winaero.com/e107_files/downloads/MetroController.zip http://winaero.com/e107_files/downloads/MetroController.zip
  - hessenwolf 15y ago
    (I mean in Office)

dpark 15y ago

> 2000 to XP was a big change. So much so that many people reverted to "Classic" mode as soon as they could do so. "Classic" mode only changed the way the OS looked. It had nothing to do with the functionality, and certainly didn't change whether the user had to "re-learn" the OS. > XP to Vista wasn't even accepted by most users. How did users have to "re-learn", though? Vista was certainly not adopted at the rate that Microsoft had hoped, but whether users accept the product is a different question from whether they have to "re-learn the OS". > Vista/XP to 7 was also a decent sized change, as I learn anytime I've attempted to verbally explain where a particular setting is and realize that it could be called anything. They did move some settings (can't recall if this was actually Vista or 7). I would hardly say that this required re-learning the OS, though. I will admit that one of the first things I always do is switch the Control Panel to "Large Icons" rather than "Category". P.S. Disclaimer: MSFT employee

MatthewPhillips 15y ago
The change in taskbar buttons was absolutely massive. Never make the mistake of confusing your ability to learn interfaces with what the general consumer knows. The general consumer doesn't find computers intuitive -- full stop. Everything they know is learned; everything.
- dpark 15y ago
  Getting rid of the labels was, I think, a change of minimal impact. I agree that grouping them was a pretty significant change, though, so that's a good example. I don't think any of the examples so far justify the claim that users have to "re-learn the OS" every version, though. It's a sensationalist claim with pretty much no backing. Most of the changes have been very incremental. Users have moved straight from XP to Win 7 in droves, and few people have complained about having to "re-learn the OS", despite it being a jump of not just one by two major versions.
  - MatthewPhillips 15y ago
    I think you are speaking from the position of a person who understands metaphors such as the task bar. Most users do not. Users only understand the most primitive of abstractions; they understand that a button is a button, but what the button does is only learned from experience (good labels help, of course). The change to the grouping-based icons on the taskbar absolutely forced users to relearn. See to you the fact that the buttons are in the same place as the old ones is an indicator that they have similar functionality; the typical user does not make these connections at all. They only know that the old task buttons are gone, and replaced with something they don't know how to use (yet). Now the level of change for this is much smaller than some other changes. Most users figured it out, many on their own (but many did not). I only used this example to demonstrate how things that are obvious and simple to you are massive barriers to common consumers.
    - dpark 15y ago
      There's a large area between "power user" and "computer illiterate". I have no doubt that there were some users who were so confused by the taskbar grouping that they never learned the new behavior, but I cannot believe that this was a common response. (Wouldn't those people actually return their PCs to the store?) Sorry, but just I can't accept that the vast majority of computer users are morons who can't understand it at all when interfaces change and have to start at square one every time. This is too cynical. The taskbar grouping was not that big of a change. Users look for icons in the taskbar, so dropping the labels was pretty minor. The grouping behavior itself was quite discoverable. If you ask an XP user who's just switched to Win7 to open a couple of word documents, and a web browser, and a few more things (enough to trigger grouping), and then ask them to go back to the word document, they'll be able to do it. They'll look in the task bar, click on the icon for Word, and then when the window thumbnails pop up, they's say "what's this?" and then click on one of the thumbnails. Functionality discovered. Yes, there's some initial confusion, but I'd hardly call it a "re-learning" of the entire OS. I also can't believe that Microsoft would have added the grouping if focus groups showed that average users were so lost that it was like using a new OS. There's not enough value added by grouping to ship it if it significantly hurt typical users' experiences.
tuple 15y ago
Disclaimer: former MCSE who quit administering windows altogether. A minor aesthetic change which requires a minor intuitive leap for the power user is a major change for most home users. Sure, the steering wheel is on the other side of the car, but thats minor. Except that now the user has to learn how to drive on the other side of the road. I loaded up windows 7 to look. Where's add/remove software? Wait, that changed and I need to set the control panel to classic to see it. Uh, where's classic mode at. Turns out you select the drop down box to Large/Small Icons for it to change the icon selection entirely. What? I spent a while longer searching for where to install OS components (IIS, etc). Minor irritants to me. Major headaches for my Father, Sister, Brother, etc. Even moreso when they call the family tech who can't figure what the hell they're talking about. I change to the interface IS a change to the OS as far as all by %1 of users are concerned.
- microkid 15y ago
  When you click Start and see a textbox which is labeled search, do you not think, what if I type "add remove". Google has taught me this, so when I see search I expect to enter keywords or search criteria and that expected results are returned. Guess what it works. Classic what? Click what? Where's what? Just search for it. Implying the rest just seems archaic, especially from a user perspective.
  - run4yourlives 15y ago
    Just search for it. Have you used an OS prior to Windows 7 and/or OSX? Search on windows actually working is a huge step forward. Many users have simply not adapted to this actually being something worth trying.
    - uxp 15y ago
      I'm one of those people. I switched to OS X somewhere around XP SP3. Have never used Vista on any of my own machines, and only run Win7 on a VM to get access to IE 8 and 9. Search on Windows is horribly broken. One of the first "shortcuts" I learned on OS X was Cmd+Space and typing out the application I wanted to run. Spotlight immediately brought up what I wanted. Windows never did that for me, or spent 45 seconds or more with a spinning hourglass to return a document that happened to be named similar to a program I wanted. I don't care if it works better now, they've set a precedent in my mind that it is broken, because it was broken for the ~15 years I used their OSes.

hessenwolf 15y ago

Speaking of power users, where can I switch off the ribbon, please?

Luyt 15y ago
http://winaero.com/e107_files/downloads/MetroController.zip http://winaero.com/e107_files/downloads/MetroController.zip
- hessenwolf 15y ago
  (I mean in Office)