6 ms·

It's also a consequence of constant R&D improvements. We can make appliances that last for 20 years or more, sure, but then when 20 years pass you have an appl

by Levitz 3y ago

It's also a consequence of constant R&D improvements. We can make appliances that last for 20 years or more, sure, but then when 20 years pass you have an appliance that is 20 years old and doesn't have any of that new stuff that came out in the last 20 years.

hotpotamus 3y ago
Well, I'll be the cranky old man today - I just want a box that keeps my food cold enough not to hurt me. That's really all I need and I imagine all I will need 20 years from now.
- 3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
  You don't even want to tweet from your fridge? Dude.
  - melx 3y ago
    Or self order from that big e-commerce that does tax avoidance. You're missing out.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    You mean Xeet from your fridge?
    - dh2022 3y ago
      (I read this as "exit from your fridge". I LOL'ed - what happened that you got inside the fridge to begin with??? :))
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        I read "Xeet" as "shieet"
      - callalex 3y ago
        How else would you survive a direct blast from a nuclear bomb? (I am referencing the absolutely absurd scene from Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull)
srgpqt 3y ago
“Improvements”. Sure, sure.
ilyt 3y ago
There is a level where you don't care about more improvements. Fridge is a box of cold stuff. I don't need much more than that. Sure it could be slightly more efficient but even 20 years old ones are pretty efficient, and I'd rather just slap an extra solar panel or two on the roof rather than replace whole fridge and junk the old one.
- LegitShady 3y ago
  Sure but how can I code an ai bot that lives in your fridge and analyzes your shopping habits, and sells that to the highest bidder? Maybe with amazon grocery integration so that it sends your groceries before you even knew you needed them. And Microsoft Tay integration! Ask your fridge questions and have it answer, in a hilariously racist fashion! New Andrew Tate plugins sold as DLC.
  - jxramos 3y ago
    No thank you.
- random_savv 3y ago
  When I did the math on replacing a 10-15 year old fridge, I was able to amortize the cost of the new fridge in 2.5 years, from the energy savings.
  - momirlan 3y ago
    assuming the new one will last 2.5 years...
    - williamcotton 3y ago
      https://www.thisoldhouse.com/home-finances/reviews/best-refrigerator-warranty https://www.thisoldhouse.com/home-finances/reviews/best-refr... It looks like all of the major manufacturers have a "sealed system" warranty for five years: A refrigerator’s sealed system typically refers to the compressor, evaporator, condenser, dryer, and connection tubing. Most companies cover both parts and labor for this system for five years. Miele and KitchenAid extend this sealed system warranty for an extra five years. Note that years six through 10 cover parts only.
pikahumu 3y ago
And which of those things coming out in the last 20 years do people actually need? Wifi-enabled fridge? I'd rather have the features from that b/w clip.
trwired 3y ago
Which is fine by me. I need a fridge to cool things down, oven to heat them up and TV to show moving pictures, all without access to wifi and other bells and whistles modern appliances come with. Just the basic stuff that those appliances could handle 20 years ago. More doesn't always translate to better.
- maccard 3y ago
  20 years ago with fridges is a bit of a funny one because by then most had gotten rid of the nasty CFC's. But, even at that, it looks like today's fridges are _orders of magnitude_ more efficient to run than those from about 15-20 years ago. For an oven and hob, the basics haven't changed, but my previous flat had a $600 oven that was silent, leaked practically no heat, preheated in a couple of minutes and came with nest features like an auto switch off. My new home has a range from about 15 years ago that cost 3x that, takes 20 minutes to preheat, has massive cool spots in the oven, and is noisier than my dishwasher. For TV's, 20 years ago we were using CRT's to drive 480 vertical lines for the most part. Nowadays, you can get a 1080p HDR led TV for $200 that used 1/3 of the power of the CRT.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    > it looks like today's fridges are _orders of magnitude_ more efficient to run than those from about 15-20 years ago 15-20 year old fridges are about 35% less energy efficient than the best modern fridges, not 100x. We just haven't made that much progress in refrigerants, compressors, nor insulation. It looks like very efficient fridges today use about 400kWh per year. Those are the best (not the average). In the late 90s, the overall average (not best) figure was ~850 kWh/yr and from the early 2000s (20 years ago), it was ~550kWh/yr. A 15-20 year old average fridge is about 35% less energy efficient (550/400 - 1) than the best modern fridges.
    - maccard 3y ago
      > 15-20 year old fridges are about 35% less energy efficient than the best modern fridges, not 100x I apologise that you took orders of magnitude literally. I'll settle for an entire order of magnitude really. I think it's _way_ more than 35%, though. > It looks like very efficient fridges today use about 400kWh per year. Those are the best (not the average). Where did you get that number from? Here's [0] a $220 fridge that advertises at 90 kWh. I found another that claims 61 kWh, but it's $1800 so I left it. 20 years ago is a very specific timeframe, if you go back 25 years you're also likely talking about removing a bunch of horriffic CFC's which were widespread at the time. I'm finding it hard to find numbers for that time frame though, the only ones I can find are early 90's claims of 1700+kWh/year. But yes, I concede, we have not had a 100x improvement in energy efficiency in 20 years. The entire rest of my post stands, and I think we've seen a 10x improvement in efficiency. At today's electricity price in the UK, the savings from a 550 kWh fridge to the one I linked above would pay for the fridge in a little over a year. Said fridge is under guarantee for 2 years in the EU/UK, so it's a _guaranteed_ cost saving over that time period. [0] https://ao.com/product/rl170d4bwe-hisense-fridge-white-80358-30.aspx https://ao.com/product/rl170d4bwe-hisense-fridge-white-80358...
amluto 3y ago
> new stuff that came out in the last 20 years. There isn’t really that much of this. Let’s consider an oven: Good temperature control: accurate, precise and reliable temperature sensors (e.g. thermocouples) have been around for a long time, as have switching devices that are plenty high speed to make an excellent oven. PID control would be easy with 1980 technology or current technology. Ovens with good temperature control are nonetheless rare. Forced convection (aka a fan): no new technology required. And they’ve been around for years. Direct outdoor exhaust: this was available in the 80s and 90s. Not sure where it went. Good insulation: nothing fancy here. Mineral wool and fiberglass have been around for a long time. Even silicone rubber gaskets that tolerate oven temperature are not particularly new. Touch screens: most of them are still worse than the old analogue controls. Steam with good controls: this is pretty new and very rare. I suspect most of what’s going on is that fancy appliance makers try to keep BOM cost very low and that helps and whistles sell appliances. (Compare a $1500 induction cooktop to a $7k fancy brand gas cooktop. I suspect the BOM cost on the induction unit is rather higher. The gas unit has some cheap brass or bronze castings (I think I read somewhere that those burners cost under $20), a potentially shiny piece of stainless steel sheet, and really cheap controls. The obvious safety mechanism to turn off the gas if the burner isn’t lit? Nonexistent. The only thing $7k buys you is a nice brand name and maybe slightly more solid construction than a much cheaper unit.)
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  > The only thing $7k buys you is a nice brand name and maybe slightly more solid construction than a much cheaper unit.) Typically you also get: more BTUs, better simmer control, easier repairability (due to construction design). I'm not arguing it's worth the money (which is why I got my $15k stove from craigslist for $2k :)
  - kjkjadksj 3y ago
    Three things that hardly matter for thousands. You can still boil water and simmer with the cheap stove. My parents stove is probably well over two decades old and never needed a repair for anything. I imagine a techician will have an easier time repairing a basic gas range where all the parts are generic compared to getting the miele certified mechanic out or whatever.
schnable 3y ago
My house came with a Subzero Fridge from 1989. Works like a champ and has a great layout. The only feature I miss from the late model LG I had at my last house is on-door water and ice. The SZ has an interior ice maker that works great though. Hope it lasts another 30 years!
goodpoint 3y ago
With appliances lasting <5 years we are way below the sweet spot.
0xdeadbeefbabe 3y ago
Making a fridge last 100 years seems like an R&D activity though. They can sell it as a subscription too.

by Levitz 3y ago

hotpotamus 3y ago

Well, I'll be the cranky old man today - I just want a box that keeps my food cold enough not to hurt me. That's really all I need and I imagine all I will need 20 years from now.

3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
You don't even want to tweet from your fridge? Dude.
- melx 3y ago
  Or self order from that big e-commerce that does tax avoidance. You're missing out.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  You mean Xeet from your fridge?
  - dh2022 3y ago
    (I read this as "exit from your fridge". I LOL'ed - what happened that you got inside the fridge to begin with??? :))
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      I read "Xeet" as "shieet"
    - callalex 3y ago
      How else would you survive a direct blast from a nuclear bomb? (I am referencing the absolutely absurd scene from Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull)

srgpqt 3y ago

“Improvements”. Sure, sure.

ilyt 3y ago

There is a level where you don't care about more improvements. Fridge is a box of cold stuff. I don't need much more than that. Sure it could be slightly more efficient but even 20 years old ones are pretty efficient, and I'd rather just slap an extra solar panel or two on the roof rather than replace whole fridge and junk the old one.

LegitShady 3y ago
Sure but how can I code an ai bot that lives in your fridge and analyzes your shopping habits, and sells that to the highest bidder? Maybe with amazon grocery integration so that it sends your groceries before you even knew you needed them. And Microsoft Tay integration! Ask your fridge questions and have it answer, in a hilariously racist fashion! New Andrew Tate plugins sold as DLC.
- jxramos 3y ago
  No thank you.
random_savv 3y ago
When I did the math on replacing a 10-15 year old fridge, I was able to amortize the cost of the new fridge in 2.5 years, from the energy savings.
- momirlan 3y ago
  assuming the new one will last 2.5 years...
  - williamcotton 3y ago
    https://www.thisoldhouse.com/home-finances/reviews/best-refrigerator-warranty https://www.thisoldhouse.com/home-finances/reviews/best-refr... It looks like all of the major manufacturers have a "sealed system" warranty for five years: A refrigerator’s sealed system typically refers to the compressor, evaporator, condenser, dryer, and connection tubing. Most companies cover both parts and labor for this system for five years. Miele and KitchenAid extend this sealed system warranty for an extra five years. Note that years six through 10 cover parts only.

pikahumu 3y ago

And which of those things coming out in the last 20 years do people actually need? Wifi-enabled fridge? I'd rather have the features from that b/w clip.

trwired 3y ago

Which is fine by me. I need a fridge to cool things down, oven to heat them up and TV to show moving pictures, all without access to wifi and other bells and whistles modern appliances come with. Just the basic stuff that those appliances could handle 20 years ago. More doesn't always translate to better.

maccard 3y ago
20 years ago with fridges is a bit of a funny one because by then most had gotten rid of the nasty CFC's. But, even at that, it looks like today's fridges are _orders of magnitude_ more efficient to run than those from about 15-20 years ago. For an oven and hob, the basics haven't changed, but my previous flat had a $600 oven that was silent, leaked practically no heat, preheated in a couple of minutes and came with nest features like an auto switch off. My new home has a range from about 15 years ago that cost 3x that, takes 20 minutes to preheat, has massive cool spots in the oven, and is noisier than my dishwasher. For TV's, 20 years ago we were using CRT's to drive 480 vertical lines for the most part. Nowadays, you can get a 1080p HDR led TV for $200 that used 1/3 of the power of the CRT.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  > it looks like today's fridges are _orders of magnitude_ more efficient to run than those from about 15-20 years ago 15-20 year old fridges are about 35% less energy efficient than the best modern fridges, not 100x. We just haven't made that much progress in refrigerants, compressors, nor insulation. It looks like very efficient fridges today use about 400kWh per year. Those are the best (not the average). In the late 90s, the overall average (not best) figure was ~850 kWh/yr and from the early 2000s (20 years ago), it was ~550kWh/yr. A 15-20 year old average fridge is about 35% less energy efficient (550/400 - 1) than the best modern fridges.
  - maccard 3y ago
    > 15-20 year old fridges are about 35% less energy efficient than the best modern fridges, not 100x I apologise that you took orders of magnitude literally. I'll settle for an entire order of magnitude really. I think it's _way_ more than 35%, though. > It looks like very efficient fridges today use about 400kWh per year. Those are the best (not the average). Where did you get that number from? Here's [0] a $220 fridge that advertises at 90 kWh. I found another that claims 61 kWh, but it's $1800 so I left it. 20 years ago is a very specific timeframe, if you go back 25 years you're also likely talking about removing a bunch of horriffic CFC's which were widespread at the time. I'm finding it hard to find numbers for that time frame though, the only ones I can find are early 90's claims of 1700+kWh/year. But yes, I concede, we have not had a 100x improvement in energy efficiency in 20 years. The entire rest of my post stands, and I think we've seen a 10x improvement in efficiency. At today's electricity price in the UK, the savings from a 550 kWh fridge to the one I linked above would pay for the fridge in a little over a year. Said fridge is under guarantee for 2 years in the EU/UK, so it's a _guaranteed_ cost saving over that time period. [0] https://ao.com/product/rl170d4bwe-hisense-fridge-white-80358-30.aspx https://ao.com/product/rl170d4bwe-hisense-fridge-white-80358...

amluto 3y ago

> new stuff that came out in the last 20 years. There isn’t really that much of this. Let’s consider an oven: Good temperature control: accurate, precise and reliable temperature sensors (e.g. thermocouples) have been around for a long time, as have switching devices that are plenty high speed to make an excellent oven. PID control would be easy with 1980 technology or current technology. Ovens with good temperature control are nonetheless rare. Forced convection (aka a fan): no new technology required. And they’ve been around for years. Direct outdoor exhaust: this was available in the 80s and 90s. Not sure where it went. Good insulation: nothing fancy here. Mineral wool and fiberglass have been around for a long time. Even silicone rubber gaskets that tolerate oven temperature are not particularly new. Touch screens: most of them are still worse than the old analogue controls. Steam with good controls: this is pretty new and very rare. I suspect most of what’s going on is that fancy appliance makers try to keep BOM cost very low and that helps and whistles sell appliances. (Compare a $1500 induction cooktop to a $7k fancy brand gas cooktop. I suspect the BOM cost on the induction unit is rather higher. The gas unit has some cheap brass or bronze castings (I think I read somewhere that those burners cost under $20), a potentially shiny piece of stainless steel sheet, and really cheap controls. The obvious safety mechanism to turn off the gas if the burner isn’t lit? Nonexistent. The only thing $7k buys you is a nice brand name and maybe slightly more solid construction than a much cheaper unit.)

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
> The only thing $7k buys you is a nice brand name and maybe slightly more solid construction than a much cheaper unit.) Typically you also get: more BTUs, better simmer control, easier repairability (due to construction design). I'm not arguing it's worth the money (which is why I got my $15k stove from craigslist for $2k :)
- kjkjadksj 3y ago
  Three things that hardly matter for thousands. You can still boil water and simmer with the cheap stove. My parents stove is probably well over two decades old and never needed a repair for anything. I imagine a techician will have an easier time repairing a basic gas range where all the parts are generic compared to getting the miele certified mechanic out or whatever.

schnable 3y ago

My house came with a Subzero Fridge from 1989. Works like a champ and has a great layout. The only feature I miss from the late model LG I had at my last house is on-door water and ice. The SZ has an interior ice maker that works great though. Hope it lasts another 30 years!

goodpoint 3y ago

With appliances lasting <5 years we are way below the sweet spot.

0xdeadbeefbabe 3y ago

Making a fridge last 100 years seems like an R&D activity though. They can sell it as a subscription too.