10 ms·

I majored in construction management in school. I was the only one in my major who didn’t grow up with a father, uncle, or grandfather in the trades. It is oft

I majored in construction management in school. I was the only one in my major who didn’t grow up with a father, uncle, or grandfather in the trades. It is often hard, grueling work. I was a project manager so I didn’t ‘perform’ any of the work, but I was still up scaffolding and down in muddy pits. The laborers are out in the worst weather day and night and make decent money- but totally wreck their bodies. So it is a combination of people being steered away from labor jobs into college, not knowing an entry point without family ties, and grueling hard work. I’m surprised anything gets built.

clove 3y ago
How are they wrecking their bodies? If they don't get injured, isn't the work pretty healthy, like exercise?
- solumunus 3y ago
  Exercising 8 hours a day for 40 years, where much of the “exercise” involves inefficient postures which put load on joints and tendons. This isn’t a session at the local gym with nice machines using movements specifically designed for safety.
  - brailsafe 3y ago
    Even if it were at the gym, it would be a miracle to do that amount of it without simply over-using your bits.
    - morkalork 3y ago
      Shit, we get RSI and carpal tunnel syndrome from typing. What is the weight carried by, or repetition of, that by that vs any trade?
  - SantalBlush 3y ago
    Exactly. Even in a gym, proper exercise form is essential for preventing injury. At work, proper form often isn't a realistic option.
  - klyrs 3y ago
    Working out in a gym 8h/day doesn't sound healthy either.
- Out_of_Characte 3y ago
  Alot of loads they carry can become completely impossible for human physiology to carry by having to extend any weight too far from your body. Or pieces of material that weigh above 150kg. No safety intstruction can prevent guys from hoisting that up on their own if it needs to be done in order to continue working. That in addition to lots of chemicals, sprays, fiberglass and dust in the air makes it a health nightmare.
- dreamcompiler 3y ago
  Micro-injuries every day. Pulled muscles. Sprains. Tendon and ligament tears. Vertebra damage from lifting too fast or incorrectly. Falls. These are usually life altering. Not using PPE because it takes too long or impedes your vision or it causes you to sweat more or you just don't want the rest of the crew to call you a pussy. Hearing damage (because no PPE). Cuts and bruises because you didn't wear gloves. Sunburn every day which means skin cancer is guaranteed eventually. Long term exposure to stuff like concrete dust, fiberglas insulation, sawdust from treated wood, volatile organics etc which can wreck your lungs. Poor nutrition because of too-short lunch breaks and unavailability of non-processed food. Getting ripped apart by heavy powered equipment because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and somebody did something stupid. Again, life altering. Frequent alcohol use to ease the aches and pains built up during the day. But mostly just hard damn physical activity in brutal conditions 8-12 hours a day. Do this for 20 years and it ages you fast and wears out your body. This is not exercise at the indoor gym with safe equipment under the supervision of a coach. This is "get your ass up that ladder with 100 lbs of shingles on your shoulder without a stinking safety rope and fast, or you're fired." What about OSHA? OSHA on construction sites is not really a thing I've seen, and if anybody mentioned an OSHA violation they would probably be fired. And since much of the labor force is undocumented, they ain't gonna report a violation anyway, lest they get discovered and deported.
  - justinclift 3y ago
    Sounds like chronic toxic employers then?
    - delfinom 3y ago
      Yea, the construction and trades industry has a lot of toxic employers, you know, middle aged or older "manly man" syndrome individuals. They are shocked that younger people don't want to join the trades and experience shit pay and daily hazing until they become a real tradesman. There are good employers out there but they are far and few between. Union jobs are also decentish but also not common outside a few places.
    - tennisflyi 3y ago
- dreamcompiler 3y ago
  Micro-injuries every day. Pulled muscles. Sprains. Tendon and ligament tears. Vertebra damage from lifting too fast or incorrectly. Falls. These are usually life altering. Not using PPE because it takes too long or impedes your vision or it causes you to sweat more or you just don't want the rest of the crew to call you a pussy. Hearing damage (because no PPE). Cuts and bruises because you didn't wear gloves. Sunburn every day which means skin cancer is guaranteed eventually. Long term exposure to stuff like concrete dust, fiberglas insulation, sawdust from treated wood, volatile organics etc which can wreck your lungs. Poor nutrition because of too-short lunch breaks and unavailability of non-processed food. Getting ripped apart by heavy powered equipment because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and somebody did something stupid. Again, life altering. Frequent alcohol use to ease the aches and pains built up during the day. But mostly just hard damn physical activity in brutal conditions 8-12 hours a day. Do this for 20 years and it ages you fast and wears out your body. This is not exercise at the indoor gym with safe equipment under the supervision of a coach. This is "get your ass up that ladder with 100 lbs of shingles on your shoulder without a stinking safety rope and fast, or you're fired." What about OSHA? OSHA on construction sites is not really a thing I've seen, and if anybody mentioned an OSHA violation they would probably be fired. And since much of the labor force is undocumented, they ain't gonna report a violation anyway, lest they get discovered and deported. (My experience is probably too limited. I'm mostly talking about residential construction. I suspect large commercial projects get more OSHA oversight. But it's still very hard, damaging work.)
  - SantalBlush 3y ago
    This is honestly a pretty good description that tracks with my experience (except watching someone getting ripped apart).
- Auracle 3y ago
  That’s a big if. My dad wrecked his back just getting down from his backhoe/skid loader/whatever it was. The ladder only went so close to the ground. You do something like that multiple times per day for so many years and eventually something will probably give. He also got buried alive once.
- polski-g 3y ago
  Just doing renovations on my house every weekend, I constantly notice bruises and cuts at the end of the day. So like that, but 8 hour days instead of 4 hour days, and 5-7 days a week.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  1-2 hours a day of exercise is easy. You stop when you want to, and can take time off. There are literally machines that guide the exact path your weight takes so as to avoid injury. Weights are symmetrical and designed to be held and carried. Workout conditions are generally comfortable or at least tolerable. The likelihood of you dying or getting hurt cuz of someone else not knowing what to do in a gym is low to negligable. Meanwhile it's 4:41am, and you're going to be working for the next 8 hours on your feet lifting 80 lb things at weird angles in high humidity. Half of your staff may be Hispanic day laborers and not speak English, and the other half may range from the semi-literate to get-in-get-out experienced tradies who DGAF about your problems cuz they're only on site for 1 day. When they fail to nail a board in properly it falls on you, not a serious injury or anything but another scratch and bruise. And then you get to do the same thing tomorrow.
- RoyalHenOil 3y ago
  The problem is that repetitive work is inherently injurious. Also, working under high pressure is very likely to lead to mistakes that cause injury. I did hard physical labor for eight years and felt great (it's honestly the best I've ever felt physically and I miss it), but I did not do repetitive work or work under extreme pressure. We were always strongly encouraged to take tons of water breaks, not rush, switch tasks several times a day, and stop working immediately if something started hurting or didn't feel right. If people are regularly wearing themselves out on physical labor, it's the fault of management.
monero-xmr 3y ago
One reason why elites tolerate so much illegal immigration is that they will do back breaking labor, often under the table or with illegal papers, and never complain with minimal wages. That labor is needed to keep the system working. To be clear I am an “open borders” guy but both political parties in the US make a lot of noise but never change anything.
- ftyers 3y ago
  Minimal wages is relative. I imagine that most people do it because those wages let them support their families and build a house / start a business back home. The crossing takes about a year to pay back, and there are living costs, but many work double shift at different jobs, with one paycheque going for living costs in the US and the other for savings/family/setting themselves up for a better life back home. 5-6 years "echando ganas" and you can be set for life. It's a pretty rational thing to do, much like pensioners who retire "down south".
  - monero-xmr 3y ago
    Of course it’s rational - my primary point was that the left pretends to want to make citizenship for undocumented workers easier, and the right to kick them all out, but for the last 30 years we have been at a stalemate and more people come to the US illegally than ever. IMO both sides like the status quo and endlessly hype to their base but never intend to do anything.
    - ftyers 3y ago
      I agree with that. It was surprising to me how easy it seems to be in the US to get by as an undocumented worker, compared to in many places in Europe for example. It's also surprising how mandatory eVerify hasn't been rolled out in all states, despite being in existence for more than 20 years.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        It is not surprising. Those in leadership positions intentionally look the other way because they and their cohorts benefit from the cheaper labor. They openly issue paltry fines to giant companies found to be violating the law. If they really wanted to, they could easily make it a jailable felony to not eVerify employment status of immigrants.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
It always boils down to insufficient pay to quality of life ratio relative to other options for the labor seller.
- missedthecue 3y ago
  Comparitive advantage rears its ugly head. Unfortunately you can't outsource construction. People in wealthy countries would rather make $20/hr working from home or an air conditioned office than $45/hr laying asphalt.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Change that to $200 per hour and the supply curves will start to shift.
    - missedthecue 3y ago
      Construction companies do not have the profit margin to do that, and cities and homebuyers can barely afford construction costs as they are. Construction companies cannot charge much more than they are charging now. The market cannot support that and things start to break down. There's already a huge infrastructure cost issue in the US. Can they afford more? How much more?
      - tuatoru 3y ago
        > Construction companies do not have the profit margin Then there's a lot of construction happening that does not need to happen. Steins Law: if something cannot go on, it will stop. Looks like we're opting for the unplanned sudden stop instead of the planned gradual stop.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        >Can they afford more? How much more? Apparently not then. Expectations of quality of life will have to be adjusted downwards (has already been happening). Of course, society could stop giving healthcare to people 90+, or 80+, and reallocate some resources from there. It all depends on who has the political power in society, but generally, with a stagnant/decreasing younger age population, the fault lines will increasingly show along various age groups.

clove 3y ago

How are they wrecking their bodies? If they don't get injured, isn't the work pretty healthy, like exercise?

solumunus 3y ago
Exercising 8 hours a day for 40 years, where much of the “exercise” involves inefficient postures which put load on joints and tendons. This isn’t a session at the local gym with nice machines using movements specifically designed for safety.
- brailsafe 3y ago
  Even if it were at the gym, it would be a miracle to do that amount of it without simply over-using your bits.
  - morkalork 3y ago
    Shit, we get RSI and carpal tunnel syndrome from typing. What is the weight carried by, or repetition of, that by that vs any trade?
- SantalBlush 3y ago
  Exactly. Even in a gym, proper exercise form is essential for preventing injury. At work, proper form often isn't a realistic option.
- klyrs 3y ago
  Working out in a gym 8h/day doesn't sound healthy either.
Out_of_Characte 3y ago
Alot of loads they carry can become completely impossible for human physiology to carry by having to extend any weight too far from your body. Or pieces of material that weigh above 150kg. No safety intstruction can prevent guys from hoisting that up on their own if it needs to be done in order to continue working. That in addition to lots of chemicals, sprays, fiberglass and dust in the air makes it a health nightmare.
dreamcompiler 3y ago
Micro-injuries every day. Pulled muscles. Sprains. Tendon and ligament tears. Vertebra damage from lifting too fast or incorrectly. Falls. These are usually life altering. Not using PPE because it takes too long or impedes your vision or it causes you to sweat more or you just don't want the rest of the crew to call you a pussy. Hearing damage (because no PPE). Cuts and bruises because you didn't wear gloves. Sunburn every day which means skin cancer is guaranteed eventually. Long term exposure to stuff like concrete dust, fiberglas insulation, sawdust from treated wood, volatile organics etc which can wreck your lungs. Poor nutrition because of too-short lunch breaks and unavailability of non-processed food. Getting ripped apart by heavy powered equipment because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and somebody did something stupid. Again, life altering. Frequent alcohol use to ease the aches and pains built up during the day. But mostly just hard damn physical activity in brutal conditions 8-12 hours a day. Do this for 20 years and it ages you fast and wears out your body. This is not exercise at the indoor gym with safe equipment under the supervision of a coach. This is "get your ass up that ladder with 100 lbs of shingles on your shoulder without a stinking safety rope and fast, or you're fired." What about OSHA? OSHA on construction sites is not really a thing I've seen, and if anybody mentioned an OSHA violation they would probably be fired. And since much of the labor force is undocumented, they ain't gonna report a violation anyway, lest they get discovered and deported.
- justinclift 3y ago
  Sounds like chronic toxic employers then?
  - delfinom 3y ago
    Yea, the construction and trades industry has a lot of toxic employers, you know, middle aged or older "manly man" syndrome individuals. They are shocked that younger people don't want to join the trades and experience shit pay and daily hazing until they become a real tradesman. There are good employers out there but they are far and few between. Union jobs are also decentish but also not common outside a few places.
  - tennisflyi 3y ago
dreamcompiler 3y ago
Micro-injuries every day. Pulled muscles. Sprains. Tendon and ligament tears. Vertebra damage from lifting too fast or incorrectly. Falls. These are usually life altering. Not using PPE because it takes too long or impedes your vision or it causes you to sweat more or you just don't want the rest of the crew to call you a pussy. Hearing damage (because no PPE). Cuts and bruises because you didn't wear gloves. Sunburn every day which means skin cancer is guaranteed eventually. Long term exposure to stuff like concrete dust, fiberglas insulation, sawdust from treated wood, volatile organics etc which can wreck your lungs. Poor nutrition because of too-short lunch breaks and unavailability of non-processed food. Getting ripped apart by heavy powered equipment because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and somebody did something stupid. Again, life altering. Frequent alcohol use to ease the aches and pains built up during the day. But mostly just hard damn physical activity in brutal conditions 8-12 hours a day. Do this for 20 years and it ages you fast and wears out your body. This is not exercise at the indoor gym with safe equipment under the supervision of a coach. This is "get your ass up that ladder with 100 lbs of shingles on your shoulder without a stinking safety rope and fast, or you're fired." What about OSHA? OSHA on construction sites is not really a thing I've seen, and if anybody mentioned an OSHA violation they would probably be fired. And since much of the labor force is undocumented, they ain't gonna report a violation anyway, lest they get discovered and deported. (My experience is probably too limited. I'm mostly talking about residential construction. I suspect large commercial projects get more OSHA oversight. But it's still very hard, damaging work.)
- SantalBlush 3y ago
  This is honestly a pretty good description that tracks with my experience (except watching someone getting ripped apart).
Auracle 3y ago
That’s a big if. My dad wrecked his back just getting down from his backhoe/skid loader/whatever it was. The ladder only went so close to the ground. You do something like that multiple times per day for so many years and eventually something will probably give. He also got buried alive once.
polski-g 3y ago
Just doing renovations on my house every weekend, I constantly notice bruises and cuts at the end of the day. So like that, but 8 hour days instead of 4 hour days, and 5-7 days a week.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
1-2 hours a day of exercise is easy. You stop when you want to, and can take time off. There are literally machines that guide the exact path your weight takes so as to avoid injury. Weights are symmetrical and designed to be held and carried. Workout conditions are generally comfortable or at least tolerable. The likelihood of you dying or getting hurt cuz of someone else not knowing what to do in a gym is low to negligable. Meanwhile it's 4:41am, and you're going to be working for the next 8 hours on your feet lifting 80 lb things at weird angles in high humidity. Half of your staff may be Hispanic day laborers and not speak English, and the other half may range from the semi-literate to get-in-get-out experienced tradies who DGAF about your problems cuz they're only on site for 1 day. When they fail to nail a board in properly it falls on you, not a serious injury or anything but another scratch and bruise. And then you get to do the same thing tomorrow.
RoyalHenOil 3y ago
The problem is that repetitive work is inherently injurious. Also, working under high pressure is very likely to lead to mistakes that cause injury. I did hard physical labor for eight years and felt great (it's honestly the best I've ever felt physically and I miss it), but I did not do repetitive work or work under extreme pressure. We were always strongly encouraged to take tons of water breaks, not rush, switch tasks several times a day, and stop working immediately if something started hurting or didn't feel right. If people are regularly wearing themselves out on physical labor, it's the fault of management.

monero-xmr 3y ago

One reason why elites tolerate so much illegal immigration is that they will do back breaking labor, often under the table or with illegal papers, and never complain with minimal wages. That labor is needed to keep the system working. To be clear I am an “open borders” guy but both political parties in the US make a lot of noise but never change anything.

ftyers 3y ago
Minimal wages is relative. I imagine that most people do it because those wages let them support their families and build a house / start a business back home. The crossing takes about a year to pay back, and there are living costs, but many work double shift at different jobs, with one paycheque going for living costs in the US and the other for savings/family/setting themselves up for a better life back home. 5-6 years "echando ganas" and you can be set for life. It's a pretty rational thing to do, much like pensioners who retire "down south".
- monero-xmr 3y ago
  Of course it’s rational - my primary point was that the left pretends to want to make citizenship for undocumented workers easier, and the right to kick them all out, but for the last 30 years we have been at a stalemate and more people come to the US illegally than ever. IMO both sides like the status quo and endlessly hype to their base but never intend to do anything.
  - ftyers 3y ago
    I agree with that. It was surprising to me how easy it seems to be in the US to get by as an undocumented worker, compared to in many places in Europe for example. It's also surprising how mandatory eVerify hasn't been rolled out in all states, despite being in existence for more than 20 years.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      It is not surprising. Those in leadership positions intentionally look the other way because they and their cohorts benefit from the cheaper labor. They openly issue paltry fines to giant companies found to be violating the law. If they really wanted to, they could easily make it a jailable felony to not eVerify employment status of immigrants.

lotsofpulp 3y ago

It always boils down to insufficient pay to quality of life ratio relative to other options for the labor seller.

missedthecue 3y ago
Comparitive advantage rears its ugly head. Unfortunately you can't outsource construction. People in wealthy countries would rather make $20/hr working from home or an air conditioned office than $45/hr laying asphalt.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Change that to $200 per hour and the supply curves will start to shift.
  - missedthecue 3y ago
    Construction companies do not have the profit margin to do that, and cities and homebuyers can barely afford construction costs as they are. Construction companies cannot charge much more than they are charging now. The market cannot support that and things start to break down. There's already a huge infrastructure cost issue in the US. Can they afford more? How much more?
    - tuatoru 3y ago
      > Construction companies do not have the profit margin Then there's a lot of construction happening that does not need to happen. Steins Law: if something cannot go on, it will stop. Looks like we're opting for the unplanned sudden stop instead of the planned gradual stop.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      >Can they afford more? How much more? Apparently not then. Expectations of quality of life will have to be adjusted downwards (has already been happening). Of course, society could stop giving healthcare to people 90+, or 80+, and reallocate some resources from there. It all depends on who has the political power in society, but generally, with a stagnant/decreasing younger age population, the fault lines will increasingly show along various age groups.