3 ms·

> Good care can be tough to find. This doesn’t invalidate the field, or the benefit of seeking help. I’d tell people to treat this like they would other life im

> Good care can be tough to find. This doesn’t invalidate the field, or the benefit of seeking help. I’d tell people to treat this like they would other life impacting health providers. Take charge of the situation, and leave providers behind who are not helpful. I do think too many people approach therapy like it’s a prescription. “Take this much, get this result”. The problem was not, as you imply, passivity on my part and an expectation that the therapist would deliver results with minimal involvement from me (I realize you didn't intend to belittle or dismiss me, but that's what the implication was). The problem was that the therapists were just plain awful. They would ghost me, use therapy session time for unrelated things, were attracted to me and couldn't deal with it, etc. When they weren't doing any of these things, "therapy" consisted largely of them trotting out empty platitudes, or doing roleplaying scenarios that I dutifully played along with but mostly found simplistic and pointless. Occasions on which something valuable happened were few and far between, and were always torpedoed by unprofessional behavior from the therapist that killed the therapeutic relationship (see the examples from earlier). Now, ironically, your own post strikes me as therapist-like behavior: you assumed what the cause of the problem was (passivity on my end), even though that did not happen at all, proceeded to give me advice on what to do ("Take charge of the situation, and leave providers behind who are not helpful" -- a startling insight indeed); advice that would apparently be simple to do, and would fix my problem. This is exactly how the therapists I've had the misfortune to work with operated: they would assume the client's issues are due to failing to see a simple solution (perhaps because of their "mistaken beliefs" or "bad mindset"), would point that out, and would expect the issues to be solved and, usually, a dose of reverence from the client. This, of course, bears essentially no resemblance to what it would take to help someone deal with a genuine, serious issue. All in all; your post, so reeking of the typical therapy mindset with all its incuriousness and condescension, only strengthens my belief that therapy is essentially worthless (except possibly for mild and superficial issues, e.g. if things are fine in your life but you have occasional panic attacks, etc.). And to bring it back to the original point: Based on the above, no, I don't think "in therapy" signals “I’m working on myself” in any meaningful sense. Plus, the stance that it does pretty much vindicates the view that everyone should be going to therapy, as it implies that therapy is a generally useful tool to help you become a better partner, and just about everyone wants to send the signal they're a good partner.

spicymapotofu 3y ago
While I'd like to agree with your points about the potential downfalls of therapy, and the troublesome implications of these applied at scale to the perverse incentives of a pro-therapy society, I cannot. Your tone is far too adversarial here for the kind of productive conversation I'd like to see or be a part of. That user's response carried none of the malice you attribute to it, and I believe you should reconsider how you address conversations like this.
- Michelangelo11 3y ago
  The response was enormously condescending, for reasons I went into at length, so I think the tone was justified. That the response was worded politely doesn't really matter. > While I'd like to agree with your points about the potential downfalls of therapy, and the troublesome implications of these applied at scale to the perverse incentives of a pro-therapy society, I cannot. Sorry, but I think being able to separate tone from substance is something pretty fundamental for having discussions you can learn from, so I wouldn't have much to tell you on this score even if I agreed about the tone being too adversarial. Now I would respect something like "I agree with your points, but please lower the tone". But saying "I can't agree with your points because of your tone" -- come on.
haswell 3y ago
> The problem was not, as you imply, passivity on my part I don't know you or the specifics of your situation, and I genuinely try not to make assumptions about other people. My comments were based on my personal experiences and conversations I've had with people in my personal life about therapy, and nothing was implied. The thought that passivity is what led to your own experiences never entered my mind. To that end, I'm not responding to the other paragraphs that were focused on this misunderstanding. You experienced what you experienced. I experienced what I experienced. These things stand on their own, and the existence of one doesn't invalidate the other, nor was raising my experience meant as an indictment of yours. > The problem was that the therapists were just plain awful. They would ghost me, use therapy session time for unrelated things, were attracted to me and couldn't deal with it This all sounds absolutely awful, and incredibly unprofessional. I'm sorry this has been your experience, and the not-so-helpful experiences I had were more about the therapist's lack of trauma experience, and some other issues of treatment style that didn't work for me. If I had therapists like the people you're describing...yeah, I can understand why you'd feel jaded about this. And I guess that was the point of my anecdote - there are some good therapists out there. People should know about this. But it's just as important to be aware of the failures in the field. I saw my comment as building on what you were saying, i.e. that there can be situations that don't work, so be aware of that and adjust accordingly. > only strengthens my belief that therapy is essentially worthless (except possibly for mild and superficial issues, e.g. if things are fine in your life but you have occasional panic attacks, etc.). In my case, Complex PTSD from physical and sexual abuse as a kid (with a cornucopia of unhelpful extreme religious belief systems on the side). I experienced a period of suicidal ideation after years of nightmarish sleep issues. At some point it dawned on me that the only way through this was to confront my own mind. Drugs don't undo memories. Walking in nature doesn't come with education about how to stop ruminating on said abuse, or what to do when it makes an appearance every night in my sleep, etc. I'm sleeping really well recently. If the issue is especially big, it's especially reasonable to need/get help. And when I think about the state of mind I was in when I started seeking help, I can't imagine how my life would have gone if I had encountered the kinds of issues you describe. I'm grateful I was fortunate enough to find good care, and take seriously the fact that some people are not so fortunate.

spicymapotofu 3y ago

While I'd like to agree with your points about the potential downfalls of therapy, and the troublesome implications of these applied at scale to the perverse incentives of a pro-therapy society, I cannot. Your tone is far too adversarial here for the kind of productive conversation I'd like to see or be a part of. That user's response carried none of the malice you attribute to it, and I believe you should reconsider how you address conversations like this.

Michelangelo11 3y ago
The response was enormously condescending, for reasons I went into at length, so I think the tone was justified. That the response was worded politely doesn't really matter. > While I'd like to agree with your points about the potential downfalls of therapy, and the troublesome implications of these applied at scale to the perverse incentives of a pro-therapy society, I cannot. Sorry, but I think being able to separate tone from substance is something pretty fundamental for having discussions you can learn from, so I wouldn't have much to tell you on this score even if I agreed about the tone being too adversarial. Now I would respect something like "I agree with your points, but please lower the tone". But saying "I can't agree with your points because of your tone" -- come on.

haswell 3y ago

> The problem was not, as you imply, passivity on my part I don't know you or the specifics of your situation, and I genuinely try not to make assumptions about other people. My comments were based on my personal experiences and conversations I've had with people in my personal life about therapy, and nothing was implied. The thought that passivity is what led to your own experiences never entered my mind. To that end, I'm not responding to the other paragraphs that were focused on this misunderstanding. You experienced what you experienced. I experienced what I experienced. These things stand on their own, and the existence of one doesn't invalidate the other, nor was raising my experience meant as an indictment of yours. > The problem was that the therapists were just plain awful. They would ghost me, use therapy session time for unrelated things, were attracted to me and couldn't deal with it This all sounds absolutely awful, and incredibly unprofessional. I'm sorry this has been your experience, and the not-so-helpful experiences I had were more about the therapist's lack of trauma experience, and some other issues of treatment style that didn't work for me. If I had therapists like the people you're describing...yeah, I can understand why you'd feel jaded about this. And I guess that was the point of my anecdote - there are some good therapists out there. People should know about this. But it's just as important to be aware of the failures in the field. I saw my comment as building on what you were saying, i.e. that there can be situations that don't work, so be aware of that and adjust accordingly. > only strengthens my belief that therapy is essentially worthless (except possibly for mild and superficial issues, e.g. if things are fine in your life but you have occasional panic attacks, etc.). In my case, Complex PTSD from physical and sexual abuse as a kid (with a cornucopia of unhelpful extreme religious belief systems on the side). I experienced a period of suicidal ideation after years of nightmarish sleep issues. At some point it dawned on me that the only way through this was to confront my own mind. Drugs don't undo memories. Walking in nature doesn't come with education about how to stop ruminating on said abuse, or what to do when it makes an appearance every night in my sleep, etc. I'm sleeping really well recently. If the issue is especially big, it's especially reasonable to need/get help. And when I think about the state of mind I was in when I started seeking help, I can't imagine how my life would have gone if I had encountered the kinds of issues you describe. I'm grateful I was fortunate enough to find good care, and take seriously the fact that some people are not so fortunate.