5 ms·

About 25 years ago, after being absolutely blown away by Crime and Punishment, I gave The Brothers Karmazov a try, and was disappointed to find it was very soap

About 25 years ago, after being absolutely blown away by Crime and Punishment, I gave The Brothers Karmazov a try, and was disappointed to find it was very soap-operaish. I really couldn't care less who was sleeping with whom or about the other petty melodrama in the book. I also recently came back to Crime and Punishment, and found that while it has some of the greatest passages I've ever read in any book, passages that are full of keen psychological penetration and empathy for deeply flawed people, there's also a lot of corny, cliche material in it: the murderer with a heart of gold, the prostitute with a heart of gold, the consumption poor mother sacrifices everything for her chldren, etc... These sorts of characters might not have been cliche in the 19th Century, but they certainly are today.

taneq 3y ago
> These sorts of characters might not have been cliche in the 19th Century, but they certainly are today. It's interesting how older works that were new and special at the time start looking generic and derivative decades later after inspiring a bunch of now-common tropes. Lord of the Rings if published today would be generic derivative fantasy because it has elves, dwarves (with a 'v'), halflings etc. and generally is just imitating Lord of the Rings.
- burnished 3y ago
  You ever read Borge's "Pierre Menard Author of the Quixote"? If not you really should, short and sweet (approx 15 pages IIRC)
offices 3y ago
Quite a lot of the plot depends on Raskolnikov being sickly and fainting at inopportune moments. In modern fiction, this would be considered contrived. It's also not just a case of modern expectations being shaped by influential novels from the past because older literature avoids the same problem. I get that it's not really 'the point' and not why people love Crime and Punishment but it is a barrier to appreciating it. I preferred & loved The Brothers Karamazov but it suffers from a similar, more justified problem: critiques on the Russian Orthodox church and prophet worship don't have much relevancy to a modern, western, atheistic audience.
mikhailfranco 3y ago
I recommend the 1979 BBC dramatization of Crime & Punishment, starring John Hurt as Raskolnikov. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0078590/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0078590/
dragonwriter 3y ago
Well-known older influential works tend to be where things that have become cliché came from.
- pests 3y ago
  This is why I have trouble watching Seinfeld. So many works have copied or been inspired by it that I've seen every trope or plot in other media beforehand.
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    Why can't Elon Musk come up with a new gag? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSFIZleBSPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSFIZleBSPI
DontchaKnowit 3y ago
Murderer with a heart of gold? The protagonist is a wretched coward from start to finish.
- rex_lupi 3y ago
  Cowards can have heart of gold too
  - Fellshard 3y ago
    The point of the book is that he does not have a heart of gold, and must find redemption outside of himself. The book as a whole is a window into this wretched soul and the devastation he wreaks on himself by his own actions, led by his blackened worldview.
  - DontchaKnowit 3y ago
    I disagree

taneq 3y ago

> These sorts of characters might not have been cliche in the 19th Century, but they certainly are today. It's interesting how older works that were new and special at the time start looking generic and derivative decades later after inspiring a bunch of now-common tropes. Lord of the Rings if published today would be generic derivative fantasy because it has elves, dwarves (with a 'v'), halflings etc. and generally is just imitating Lord of the Rings.

burnished 3y ago
You ever read Borge's "Pierre Menard Author of the Quixote"? If not you really should, short and sweet (approx 15 pages IIRC)

offices 3y ago

Quite a lot of the plot depends on Raskolnikov being sickly and fainting at inopportune moments. In modern fiction, this would be considered contrived. It's also not just a case of modern expectations being shaped by influential novels from the past because older literature avoids the same problem. I get that it's not really 'the point' and not why people love Crime and Punishment but it is a barrier to appreciating it. I preferred & loved The Brothers Karamazov but it suffers from a similar, more justified problem: critiques on the Russian Orthodox church and prophet worship don't have much relevancy to a modern, western, atheistic audience.

mikhailfranco 3y ago

I recommend the 1979 BBC dramatization of Crime & Punishment, starring John Hurt as Raskolnikov. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0078590/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0078590/

dragonwriter 3y ago

Well-known older influential works tend to be where things that have become cliché came from.

pests 3y ago
This is why I have trouble watching Seinfeld. So many works have copied or been inspired by it that I've seen every trope or plot in other media beforehand.
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  Why can't Elon Musk come up with a new gag? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSFIZleBSPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSFIZleBSPI

DontchaKnowit 3y ago

Murderer with a heart of gold? The protagonist is a wretched coward from start to finish.

rex_lupi 3y ago
Cowards can have heart of gold too
- Fellshard 3y ago
  The point of the book is that he does not have a heart of gold, and must find redemption outside of himself. The book as a whole is a window into this wretched soul and the devastation he wreaks on himself by his own actions, led by his blackened worldview.
- DontchaKnowit 3y ago
  I disagree