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>>a working man could support a family of five, buy a house, a car and afford vacation once or twice a year, plus save enough to retire comfortably. I would sa

>>a working man could support a family of five, buy a house, a car and afford vacation once or twice a year, plus save enough to retire comfortably. I would say my family history is that of a "working man" that closly fits that narraive.. My grandfather was a WWII vet, after military service was a factory worker that raised 4 kids, in their own home. Let me eliminate some of that illusory rose tint from your worldview. That home with 2 adults and 4 kids was a 950 square foot 1 bathroom box on .25 acres of land, with no garage, basement, or luxury of any type. my family still owns this property. In comparison me a single man, lives in a 1300 sqft home.. by myself, with 2 car garage, full basement, etc. My home is considered "basic" by modern standards, some would even consider it below minimum standards for a family of 4...(I bought this home from such a family because they felt it was too small for them) No builder would ever consider building either my home (which was built in the 60's, nor my grandparents home (built in the early 50's) as today home sizes need to be 1500-2000 square foot, each bedroom needs it own bath, kitchens need to be near professional quality, etc etc etc etc etc. In short home prices are sky high because buyers would never consider, and probally could not legally, raise 4 kids in a 1 bath 950 sqaure foot home. We often to not actualy compare apples to apple when we look at the conditions of the past. Sure a man could buy a home for his family in 1950... That home was about 1/2 the size of todays home, and had FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR less amenities and comforts of the modern home

grecy 3y ago
Obviously this depends entirely on the country and region. My grandfather immigrated to Australia in 1948, got a job assembling cars at the Ford plant, and worked there until he retired. My Grandmother never worked. They bought a very nice house, had two boys, never really had any debt, plenty of money in retirement. A generation later my Dad was earning $10k/year as a teacher, and my mum and dad bought their first very nice home for $30k. So today how many people earning $100k/year can buy a home for $300k? (As reference, my partner earns $78k/year and bought a modest home for $480k the month before covid. Now there is not a single home in this small town for less than $600k.)
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  >>entirely on the country and region. Very true... My home when I bought it was about 2x my annual income, my home today is worth on the market about 2x my current annual income. The average factory worker (or teacher) in my area could easily afford to buy my home in a standard 2 person income situation. Now if you go into the new construction area's of this city, the houses there start at 2x the price of my home. I am a relatively high income earner though that is offsite by the fact I live alone so no dual income. On paper I could afford one of those homes, but I would never go that far into debt, which is why I own the home I do. I bought in a modest neighborhood and a modest home. Currently average home prices in my area are 3.5x median household incomes, which is up from 2.25x in 2016... This is largely drive by the new construction of these high end homes fueled by low interest rates.
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    > This is largely drive by the new construction of these high end homes fueled by low interest rates. I doubt it. How many such modest houses in your modest neighborhood are available now? How much has the housing supply in your town grown, and how much has the population grown? Are all these buyers actually making a direct choice between these two kinds of houses, or is only one of those choices actually available to buy?
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      >How many such modest houses in your modest neighborhood are available now? In my zipcode +/- 10% of my home value... 30 or so.... >How much has the housing supply in your town grown, and how much has the population grown? No idea on supply... We average about 1% population growth per year. Slight decrease during the pandemic, slight increase in the last couple of years. In the same zip code there are 18 New Construction properties for sale, all 2 - 3x my home price. Which would not include the homes being built for buyers under contract.
- vel0city 3y ago
  As a percentage of income that 78/480 is probably less in the monthly payment than the 10/30 or at least in the same ballpark, since interest rates back then were probably much higher for the 10/30 loan, assuming equal percentage down payments and same terms and what not.
lazyasciiart 3y ago
> In short home prices are sky high because buyers would never consider, and probally could not legally, raise 4 kids in a 1 bath 950 sqaure foot home. I live in a place the same size as you, minus the garage and the land, as a family of 3 so far. There are plenty of potential homebuyers who would kill for this, and I know of nowhere in the USA that it would be illegal. The problem is that cities limit the number of homes that can be built to ludicrous low density setups like "one house on 2 square acres", and there are enough homebuyers who will pay for the house three times that size with a bathroom per bedroom that the builder doesn't bother to worry about the potential buyers who are not being served and have to move out beyond the edges of public transit to afford anything. And these density limits remain because old people swan around moaning that it's inhumane to build studio apartments when everybody wants a 12 sq acre bathroom, and why are there people in tents on the street?
- paulmd 3y ago
  > And these density limits remain because old people swan around moaning that it's inhumane to build studio apartments when everybody wants a 12 sq acre bathroom, and why are there people in tents on the street? Also Prop 13 in California that transfers wealth from new buyers to boomers who bought a home when it was cheap, and to wealthy buyers who can afford to buy a teardown and rebuild it around a single remaining wall. But really, almost all of society’s current problems are pushed onto the public by the political power wielded by elderly boomers and retirees. The rest of us would like to do something about climate change and LGBT issues and cost of education but none of that affects boomers either. The elderly are fundamentally disconnected from the future of society because they will not participate in it, and unfortunate most people are not actually mature enough to demand sacrifices without an expectation they will share in the benefits. The meme about “old men planting trees in whose shade they know they will never sit” is not true, and it’s unfair to punish the living and their future from the hand of the dead. To use the term a bit differently than usual, the constitution is not a suicide pact. We have a lower age limit on voting and there is perpetual talk about raising it to try and curb the political influence of the younger cohort (much like class war, one side is playing hardball, while the other side doesn’t even know they’re playing). Instead, we should keep it the same and add a cap at the age at which you can first draw early social security benefits. I have heard all the retorts, what about the good boomers etc. But it’s just not good policy to have what are effectively transient participants (similar to how immigrants don’t get to vote) without a long-term stake in society being the ones in political control, even if some of them are well-intentioned. Again, boomers keep trying to push exactly this change in reverse by trying to raise the voting age. They know there’s a class battle being fought here, but as usual the other side has talked themselves out of even playing the game, like if you don’t acknowledge it then it goes away.

grecy 3y ago

Obviously this depends entirely on the country and region. My grandfather immigrated to Australia in 1948, got a job assembling cars at the Ford plant, and worked there until he retired. My Grandmother never worked. They bought a very nice house, had two boys, never really had any debt, plenty of money in retirement. A generation later my Dad was earning $10k/year as a teacher, and my mum and dad bought their first very nice home for $30k. So today how many people earning $100k/year can buy a home for $300k? (As reference, my partner earns $78k/year and bought a modest home for $480k the month before covid. Now there is not a single home in this small town for less than $600k.)

phpisthebest 3y ago
>>entirely on the country and region. Very true... My home when I bought it was about 2x my annual income, my home today is worth on the market about 2x my current annual income. The average factory worker (or teacher) in my area could easily afford to buy my home in a standard 2 person income situation. Now if you go into the new construction area's of this city, the houses there start at 2x the price of my home. I am a relatively high income earner though that is offsite by the fact I live alone so no dual income. On paper I could afford one of those homes, but I would never go that far into debt, which is why I own the home I do. I bought in a modest neighborhood and a modest home. Currently average home prices in my area are 3.5x median household incomes, which is up from 2.25x in 2016... This is largely drive by the new construction of these high end homes fueled by low interest rates.
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  > This is largely drive by the new construction of these high end homes fueled by low interest rates. I doubt it. How many such modest houses in your modest neighborhood are available now? How much has the housing supply in your town grown, and how much has the population grown? Are all these buyers actually making a direct choice between these two kinds of houses, or is only one of those choices actually available to buy?
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    >How many such modest houses in your modest neighborhood are available now? In my zipcode +/- 10% of my home value... 30 or so.... >How much has the housing supply in your town grown, and how much has the population grown? No idea on supply... We average about 1% population growth per year. Slight decrease during the pandemic, slight increase in the last couple of years. In the same zip code there are 18 New Construction properties for sale, all 2 - 3x my home price. Which would not include the homes being built for buyers under contract.
vel0city 3y ago
As a percentage of income that 78/480 is probably less in the monthly payment than the 10/30 or at least in the same ballpark, since interest rates back then were probably much higher for the 10/30 loan, assuming equal percentage down payments and same terms and what not.

lazyasciiart 3y ago

> In short home prices are sky high because buyers would never consider, and probally could not legally, raise 4 kids in a 1 bath 950 sqaure foot home. I live in a place the same size as you, minus the garage and the land, as a family of 3 so far. There are plenty of potential homebuyers who would kill for this, and I know of nowhere in the USA that it would be illegal. The problem is that cities limit the number of homes that can be built to ludicrous low density setups like "one house on 2 square acres", and there are enough homebuyers who will pay for the house three times that size with a bathroom per bedroom that the builder doesn't bother to worry about the potential buyers who are not being served and have to move out beyond the edges of public transit to afford anything. And these density limits remain because old people swan around moaning that it's inhumane to build studio apartments when everybody wants a 12 sq acre bathroom, and why are there people in tents on the street?

paulmd 3y ago
> And these density limits remain because old people swan around moaning that it's inhumane to build studio apartments when everybody wants a 12 sq acre bathroom, and why are there people in tents on the street? Also Prop 13 in California that transfers wealth from new buyers to boomers who bought a home when it was cheap, and to wealthy buyers who can afford to buy a teardown and rebuild it around a single remaining wall. But really, almost all of society’s current problems are pushed onto the public by the political power wielded by elderly boomers and retirees. The rest of us would like to do something about climate change and LGBT issues and cost of education but none of that affects boomers either. The elderly are fundamentally disconnected from the future of society because they will not participate in it, and unfortunate most people are not actually mature enough to demand sacrifices without an expectation they will share in the benefits. The meme about “old men planting trees in whose shade they know they will never sit” is not true, and it’s unfair to punish the living and their future from the hand of the dead. To use the term a bit differently than usual, the constitution is not a suicide pact. We have a lower age limit on voting and there is perpetual talk about raising it to try and curb the political influence of the younger cohort (much like class war, one side is playing hardball, while the other side doesn’t even know they’re playing). Instead, we should keep it the same and add a cap at the age at which you can first draw early social security benefits. I have heard all the retorts, what about the good boomers etc. But it’s just not good policy to have what are effectively transient participants (similar to how immigrants don’t get to vote) without a long-term stake in society being the ones in political control, even if some of them are well-intentioned. Again, boomers keep trying to push exactly this change in reverse by trying to raise the voting age. They know there’s a class battle being fought here, but as usual the other side has talked themselves out of even playing the game, like if you don’t acknowledge it then it goes away.