5 ms·

I'm skeptical about calling it a disability, because a lot of these mechanisms and dark patterns are made to prey on everyone's nature. Some people may more su

I'm skeptical about calling it a disability, because a lot of these mechanisms and dark patterns are made to prey on everyone's nature. Some people may more susceptible to those stimuli, but I don't see it a disability, but as natural neurodiversity. These are plainly predatory and unethical marketing practices, for everyone!

concordDance 3y ago
A lot of disabilities are a sliding scale with fuzzy grey areas. E.g. visual impairment goes all the way from "struggling to distinguish colors" and "vision is distorted enough that it's impossible to correct to 20-20" to "can't see hand in from of face"
Retric 3y ago
Pay to win video games really are ultimately targeting a small demographic as a tiny percentage of the audience results in the majority of their income. The thing is they don’t know who specifically is vulnerable ahead of time, so they cast a wide net.
coldtea 3y ago
Neurodiversity is a nicer sounding term, to mask the fact that underneath there are certain life affecting disabilities - often severely life affecting (if it was just harmless "natural neurodiversity", it wouldn't translate to reduced life expectancy. Not to mention millions of cases which need constant assistance to make it througn everyday life). That it also targets "everyone's nature" doesn't mean it's not a bigger issue for people with certain neurodiversities affecting impulse control more. Same way a badly maintained road might also inconvenience a perfectly abled walker, but it is far more burdensome to a disabled person.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > if it was just harmless “natural neurodiversity”, it wouldn’t translate to reduced life expectancy. Without disagreeing that the space of neurodivergence includes some life affecting disabilities, this generalization would also prove that race is not just harmless “natural diversity” but that being of a non-dominant race is also a “life affecting disability”. There are other explanations for correlation with reduced life expectancy than individual disability.
  - concordDance 3y ago
    > that being of a non-dominant race is also a “life affecting disability”. One thing worth noticing is that a society tends to be designed for the convenience of the dominant ethnicity, people of a different culture are going to have a somewhat harder time.
    - exoverito 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - red-iron-pine 3y ago
      cultures can be taught; no amount of learning is going to make a black person white, or make either japanese.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    The mechanism doesn't have to be genetic/physiological. Social or behavioral disavantages caused or attenuated by the disability, still means the disability is not harmless.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    Which is unquestionably true https://spia.princeton.edu/news/life-expectancy-gap-between-black-and-white-americans-closes-nearly-50-30-years https://spia.princeton.edu/news/life-expectancy-gap-between-...
- adroniser 3y ago
  The reason for the low life expectancy of autism for instance is suicide.
  - concordDance 3y ago
    No, there's a ton of comorbidities. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditions_comorbid_to_autism_spectrum_disorders https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditions_comorbid_to_autis...
    - adroniser 3y ago
      Yeah there's comorbidities, the only two of which are significant enough for the literature to note in this context is epilepsy and mental illness. Epilepsy does not account for most early death in level 1 ASD.
      - concordDance 3y ago
        Got some numbers or a cite in this?
        adroniser 3y ago
        I don't actually but i've heard it said by a fair few experts in autism and such as being one of the big things they focus on as it is the main reason for early mortality.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    It's lower even accounting for suicide already. There are lots of other issues, like losing supporting parents and family, lack of a support network of friends, lack of job opportunities and bad work careers, issues with pursuing healthcare and maintaining health and lack of access to healthcare, and so on.
    - adroniser 3y ago
      These are all systemic issues though are they not? You could make all of these same arguments about gay people back in the 80s. Yes even the healthcare one. That doesn't mean that being gay isn't a natural variation in sexual orientation just as being autistic is a natural variation in brain structure.
DoughnutHole 3y ago
Whether or not something is considered a disability is really matter of severity. I believe this applies to both physical and mental conditions. If someone has reduced mobility in their arm due to some past injury that might not be considered a disability if its impact on their life is low. If that impairment is so severe that they have functionally lost use of that arm then it could easily be considered such. I don’t consider my ADHD a disability, but it is an impairment with regards to impulse control. But someone else’s condition could be much more severe. Someone with bipolar disorder or manic depression can easily go through a bout of extreme suggestibility which can wreak absolute havoc on their life. Categorising many mental disorders as harmless “neurodiversity” feels like a form of forced positivity imposed to alleviate the stigma of some disorders at the cost of dismissing the serious impairments inherent to others.
- kayodelycaon 3y ago
  I’m am bipolar and neurodivergent doesn’t even scratch the surface. Hypomanic episodes are expensive because I have barely any impulse control. No amount of defense in depth can stop me from getting access to money. I have to use a different strategy: I prepare for these episodes months in advance. I needed a new car, so I set myself up to be fixated on a new Prius when the episode got bad. Nothing less than new would do because I wouldn’t have the presence of mind to vet a used one. This put a hard limit on the financial damage. The highest trim Prius with all of the options is cheaper that many other cars I could have bought. The end result was a car $10,000 over my maximum budget. It has far too many buttons, but it didn’t ruin me and I love the car. All in all, a successfully managed episode. This is one of hundreds of problems I deal with and plan for.
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    Can you not get some trusted 3rd party (I assume a lawyer or accountant is the professional option) to limit you. Legally prevent you, for instance, from spending X (or borrowing money) on a car?
    - kayodelycaon 3y ago
HumblyTossed 3y ago
Respectfully, you are not trauma informed if you feel this way. Plenty of kids in foster care who have been traumatized by bios have impulse control issues due to their mal-developed amygdala.
- concordDance 3y ago
  The impulse control issues could also be genetic, inherited from the parents.
- HWR_14 3y ago
  I'm skeptical but curious. Trauma caused mal-developed amygdala which causes impulse control issues? That sounds like one of those things that could be true or hokum. Like, would it show up on brain scans. And do they commonly do those on people? That said, I'm sure you have a direction you can point me - at least some search terms for Google.
  - HumblyTossed 3y ago
    Simply Google childhood trauma effects on the brain. Yes, it shows up on brain scans. Children in abusive households, be it physical, emotional, neglect, etc are in near total fight flight or flee mode constantly. This absolutely effects the amygdala.

concordDance 3y ago

A lot of disabilities are a sliding scale with fuzzy grey areas. E.g. visual impairment goes all the way from "struggling to distinguish colors" and "vision is distorted enough that it's impossible to correct to 20-20" to "can't see hand in from of face"

Retric 3y ago

Pay to win video games really are ultimately targeting a small demographic as a tiny percentage of the audience results in the majority of their income. The thing is they don’t know who specifically is vulnerable ahead of time, so they cast a wide net.

coldtea 3y ago

Neurodiversity is a nicer sounding term, to mask the fact that underneath there are certain life affecting disabilities - often severely life affecting (if it was just harmless "natural neurodiversity", it wouldn't translate to reduced life expectancy. Not to mention millions of cases which need constant assistance to make it througn everyday life). That it also targets "everyone's nature" doesn't mean it's not a bigger issue for people with certain neurodiversities affecting impulse control more. Same way a badly maintained road might also inconvenience a perfectly abled walker, but it is far more burdensome to a disabled person.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> if it was just harmless “natural neurodiversity”, it wouldn’t translate to reduced life expectancy. Without disagreeing that the space of neurodivergence includes some life affecting disabilities, this generalization would also prove that race is not just harmless “natural diversity” but that being of a non-dominant race is also a “life affecting disability”. There are other explanations for correlation with reduced life expectancy than individual disability.
- concordDance 3y ago
  > that being of a non-dominant race is also a “life affecting disability”. One thing worth noticing is that a society tends to be designed for the convenience of the dominant ethnicity, people of a different culture are going to have a somewhat harder time.
  - exoverito 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    cultures can be taught; no amount of learning is going to make a black person white, or make either japanese.
- coldtea 3y ago
  The mechanism doesn't have to be genetic/physiological. Social or behavioral disavantages caused or attenuated by the disability, still means the disability is not harmless.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  Which is unquestionably true https://spia.princeton.edu/news/life-expectancy-gap-between-black-and-white-americans-closes-nearly-50-30-years https://spia.princeton.edu/news/life-expectancy-gap-between-...
adroniser 3y ago
The reason for the low life expectancy of autism for instance is suicide.
- concordDance 3y ago
  No, there's a ton of comorbidities. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditions_comorbid_to_autism_spectrum_disorders https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditions_comorbid_to_autis...
  - adroniser 3y ago
    Yeah there's comorbidities, the only two of which are significant enough for the literature to note in this context is epilepsy and mental illness. Epilepsy does not account for most early death in level 1 ASD.
    - concordDance 3y ago
      Got some numbers or a cite in this?
      - adroniser 3y ago
        I don't actually but i've heard it said by a fair few experts in autism and such as being one of the big things they focus on as it is the main reason for early mortality.
- coldtea 3y ago
  It's lower even accounting for suicide already. There are lots of other issues, like losing supporting parents and family, lack of a support network of friends, lack of job opportunities and bad work careers, issues with pursuing healthcare and maintaining health and lack of access to healthcare, and so on.
  - adroniser 3y ago
    These are all systemic issues though are they not? You could make all of these same arguments about gay people back in the 80s. Yes even the healthcare one. That doesn't mean that being gay isn't a natural variation in sexual orientation just as being autistic is a natural variation in brain structure.

DoughnutHole 3y ago

Whether or not something is considered a disability is really matter of severity. I believe this applies to both physical and mental conditions. If someone has reduced mobility in their arm due to some past injury that might not be considered a disability if its impact on their life is low. If that impairment is so severe that they have functionally lost use of that arm then it could easily be considered such. I don’t consider my ADHD a disability, but it is an impairment with regards to impulse control. But someone else’s condition could be much more severe. Someone with bipolar disorder or manic depression can easily go through a bout of extreme suggestibility which can wreak absolute havoc on their life. Categorising many mental disorders as harmless “neurodiversity” feels like a form of forced positivity imposed to alleviate the stigma of some disorders at the cost of dismissing the serious impairments inherent to others.

kayodelycaon 3y ago
I’m am bipolar and neurodivergent doesn’t even scratch the surface. Hypomanic episodes are expensive because I have barely any impulse control. No amount of defense in depth can stop me from getting access to money. I have to use a different strategy: I prepare for these episodes months in advance. I needed a new car, so I set myself up to be fixated on a new Prius when the episode got bad. Nothing less than new would do because I wouldn’t have the presence of mind to vet a used one. This put a hard limit on the financial damage. The highest trim Prius with all of the options is cheaper that many other cars I could have bought. The end result was a car $10,000 over my maximum budget. It has far too many buttons, but it didn’t ruin me and I love the car. All in all, a successfully managed episode. This is one of hundreds of problems I deal with and plan for.
- HWR_14 3y ago
  Can you not get some trusted 3rd party (I assume a lawyer or accountant is the professional option) to limit you. Legally prevent you, for instance, from spending X (or borrowing money) on a car?
  - kayodelycaon 3y ago

HumblyTossed 3y ago

Respectfully, you are not trauma informed if you feel this way. Plenty of kids in foster care who have been traumatized by bios have impulse control issues due to their mal-developed amygdala.

concordDance 3y ago
The impulse control issues could also be genetic, inherited from the parents.
HWR_14 3y ago
I'm skeptical but curious. Trauma caused mal-developed amygdala which causes impulse control issues? That sounds like one of those things that could be true or hokum. Like, would it show up on brain scans. And do they commonly do those on people? That said, I'm sure you have a direction you can point me - at least some search terms for Google.
- HumblyTossed 3y ago
  Simply Google childhood trauma effects on the brain. Yes, it shows up on brain scans. Children in abusive households, be it physical, emotional, neglect, etc are in near total fight flight or flee mode constantly. This absolutely effects the amygdala.