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I do not understand how this is supposed to prevent sibyl attacks? How do they prevent fake virtual iris scanning devices from pretending that they scanned a p

I do not understand how this is supposed to prevent sibyl attacks? How do they prevent fake virtual iris scanning devices from pretending that they scanned a person that doesn’t actually exist? Or is the idea that sama is will run a centralised private identity system that aims to replace government identity management? Then why do you need crypto? Are they trying to replace proof of stake/proof of work with “proof of being a human being”? I don’t see how the iris scanning achieves this? I think it’s fundamentally impossible. If you don’t have a centralised authority verifying identity, the best thing you can get is peer-to-peer federated identity verification like PGP. But with this, identity is relative, as in “I trust a guy who trusts a gal who says this person is real”.

aionaiodfgnio 3y ago
Of course it will be centralized! There is no cryptocurrency that isn't. Cryptocurrencies can't scale without centralization, and there's no way to interface with the real world without some sort of trust.
espadrine 3y ago
The signup module is indeed a centralized system, which then records the new registration on a distributed ledger (which only someone with Worldcoin’s private key can do). From there, payment operations are done distributed on Ethereum / L2. The signup process is always a sensitive part of a cryptosystem, and open network membership is not always expected (for instance, CBDCs, Ripple…). There is certainly a philosophical argument to be made against closed membership, since it can disadvantage people that struggle for access, and lets the company discriminate in the future once they get a stronghold, which can be especially problematic considering the primary value of human-uniqueness is to restrict voting to an in-group whose bounds historically have been heavily argued even in non-repressive regimes. But it seems unlikely to become predominant. Some people have prosthetic eyes; I would be hard-pressed to imagine, say, Apple releasing an iPhone that is inaccessible to a population in such a significant way.
- konschubert 3y ago
  If you have centralised signup and identity you may as well run a Postgres DB or a git repo. It could still be a cool idea, but I don’t get how this needs crypto?
  - jonny_eh 3y ago
    How else do you get A16z to invest?
    - mousetree 3y ago
      You play League of Legends while on a pitch call with them
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - polynomial 3y ago
        I believe that was Sequoia? Who just massively downsized that very fund this week. (Tho he did seem to play LoL on a lot of calls…)
      - optimalsolver 3y ago
        That sounds like a real power-move from a top-tier mind.
  - polynomial 3y ago
    Presumably so that the underlying system can be auditable by 'anyone'?
    - FabHK 3y ago
      That can still be done by streaming the updates to whoever wants them (can even hash each chunk of updates, and include the hash of the prior chunk in each chunk, to get a linked list of chunks, which would prevent undetected manipulation of prior chunks).
Animats 3y ago
> sibyl attacks? This is exactly the same problem as spam detection - nobody has found a good way to prevent people from generating large numbers of fake identities, short of government identity registration. The classic "Why your solution to spam won't work"[1] checklist applies. [1] https://craphound.com/spamsolutions.txt https://craphound.com/spamsolutions.txt
- konschubert 3y ago
  Yea, so he’s building an alternative to a government identity system. Which is cool I guess, but why does it need a coin?
  - HenryBemis 3y ago
    It's a tip/gift/bonus/incentive for people to give away their data. And since this is a game of numbers, they knew that throwing $10-20-30 USD to about 400mn people in poor countries they would get the momentum going. I expect Europeans to shun this. I fear though that once they hit "1bn people" they will invoke the FOMO into the rest.
    - kibwen 3y ago
      > I fear though that once they hit "1bn people" they will invoke the FOMO into the rest. Over a billion humans have intestinal parasites, but that doesn't mean people are queuing up for worm eggs.
      - smaudet 3y ago
        Perhaps not, but that's what marketing is for... "Increase your resistance gut to parasites with our revolutionary cure!" Or some such... And then you realize what complete sleezy snakes most of these tech bros are.
      - tryauuum 3y ago
        comparing software to parasites... Is this a Steve Ballmer account?
_9omd 3y ago
I think fake iris scanning is the least of the concerns here. The big problem, and likely reason this will fail, is there’s nothing preventing you from selling your account for a small fee after getting your initial scan to set it up. And that’s likely exactly what will happen, because they’re onboarding users in poor countries first. These users don’t give a shit about world coin, they’re simply lining up and being scanned to make a bit of easy money.
- 93po 3y ago
  The premise is that you can make spam filtering and bot filtering and circles of trust work if you have a finite amount of accounts. Currently on the internet there are infinite accounts. If there's only a billion accounts, filtering becomes much easier.
  - konschubert 3y ago
    Yeah, it’s a cool idea, even though it creeps me out. But why do you need a coin for that? If you have centralised accounts you may as well have a centralised ledger. On the other hand, if you decentralise account creation - let me tell about my friend, the virtual iris scanner powered by /dev/random
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    And all the poor people who sold their accounts when that seemed to have no cost for $50 (which is real money) are locked out of the internet forever
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - audunw 3y ago
      No idea how world coin is supposed to work.. but couldn’t they get their account back by scanning their iris again? Like, I’m guessing you’re not supposed to have to scan your iris every time you use your account. But can’t the iris be like a “I forgot my password” mechanism?
happytiger 3y ago
It’s a value of the database play and graph databases (association, social credit) gain most of their value (like social networks) from scale. You don’t have to have great data, but you need a LOT of data, for them to serve the purpose. There is a lot of room for systems that are the silver standard and the math enables a great deal of reliability for those outside of the traditional financial systems (many people). It doesn’t have to be perfect, it just has to be good enough.
tim333 3y ago
>How do they prevent fake virtual iris scanning devices from pretending that they scanned a person that doesn’t actually exist? Each scanner is registered, authorised, tracked etc. Presumably with a private key but also I think they have the location, operator details and so on for every one.
- konschubert 3y ago
  doesn't sound very decentralised to me ;)

aionaiodfgnio 3y ago

Of course it will be centralized! There is no cryptocurrency that isn't. Cryptocurrencies can't scale without centralization, and there's no way to interface with the real world without some sort of trust.

espadrine 3y ago

The signup module is indeed a centralized system, which then records the new registration on a distributed ledger (which only someone with Worldcoin’s private key can do). From there, payment operations are done distributed on Ethereum / L2. The signup process is always a sensitive part of a cryptosystem, and open network membership is not always expected (for instance, CBDCs, Ripple…). There is certainly a philosophical argument to be made against closed membership, since it can disadvantage people that struggle for access, and lets the company discriminate in the future once they get a stronghold, which can be especially problematic considering the primary value of human-uniqueness is to restrict voting to an in-group whose bounds historically have been heavily argued even in non-repressive regimes. But it seems unlikely to become predominant. Some people have prosthetic eyes; I would be hard-pressed to imagine, say, Apple releasing an iPhone that is inaccessible to a population in such a significant way.

konschubert 3y ago
If you have centralised signup and identity you may as well run a Postgres DB or a git repo. It could still be a cool idea, but I don’t get how this needs crypto?
- jonny_eh 3y ago
  How else do you get A16z to invest?
  - mousetree 3y ago
    You play League of Legends while on a pitch call with them
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - polynomial 3y ago
      I believe that was Sequoia? Who just massively downsized that very fund this week. (Tho he did seem to play LoL on a lot of calls…)
    - optimalsolver 3y ago
      That sounds like a real power-move from a top-tier mind.
- polynomial 3y ago
  Presumably so that the underlying system can be auditable by 'anyone'?
  - FabHK 3y ago
    That can still be done by streaming the updates to whoever wants them (can even hash each chunk of updates, and include the hash of the prior chunk in each chunk, to get a linked list of chunks, which would prevent undetected manipulation of prior chunks).

Animats 3y ago

> sibyl attacks? This is exactly the same problem as spam detection - nobody has found a good way to prevent people from generating large numbers of fake identities, short of government identity registration. The classic "Why your solution to spam won't work"[1] checklist applies. [1] https://craphound.com/spamsolutions.txt https://craphound.com/spamsolutions.txt

konschubert 3y ago
Yea, so he’s building an alternative to a government identity system. Which is cool I guess, but why does it need a coin?
- HenryBemis 3y ago
  It's a tip/gift/bonus/incentive for people to give away their data. And since this is a game of numbers, they knew that throwing $10-20-30 USD to about 400mn people in poor countries they would get the momentum going. I expect Europeans to shun this. I fear though that once they hit "1bn people" they will invoke the FOMO into the rest.
  - kibwen 3y ago
    > I fear though that once they hit "1bn people" they will invoke the FOMO into the rest. Over a billion humans have intestinal parasites, but that doesn't mean people are queuing up for worm eggs.
    - smaudet 3y ago
      Perhaps not, but that's what marketing is for... "Increase your resistance gut to parasites with our revolutionary cure!" Or some such... And then you realize what complete sleezy snakes most of these tech bros are.
    - tryauuum 3y ago
      comparing software to parasites... Is this a Steve Ballmer account?

_9omd 3y ago

I think fake iris scanning is the least of the concerns here. The big problem, and likely reason this will fail, is there’s nothing preventing you from selling your account for a small fee after getting your initial scan to set it up. And that’s likely exactly what will happen, because they’re onboarding users in poor countries first. These users don’t give a shit about world coin, they’re simply lining up and being scanned to make a bit of easy money.

93po 3y ago
The premise is that you can make spam filtering and bot filtering and circles of trust work if you have a finite amount of accounts. Currently on the internet there are infinite accounts. If there's only a billion accounts, filtering becomes much easier.
- konschubert 3y ago
  Yeah, it’s a cool idea, even though it creeps me out. But why do you need a coin for that? If you have centralised accounts you may as well have a centralised ledger. On the other hand, if you decentralise account creation - let me tell about my friend, the virtual iris scanner powered by /dev/random
- HWR_14 3y ago
  And all the poor people who sold their accounts when that seemed to have no cost for $50 (which is real money) are locked out of the internet forever
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - audunw 3y ago
    No idea how world coin is supposed to work.. but couldn’t they get their account back by scanning their iris again? Like, I’m guessing you’re not supposed to have to scan your iris every time you use your account. But can’t the iris be like a “I forgot my password” mechanism?

happytiger 3y ago

It’s a value of the database play and graph databases (association, social credit) gain most of their value (like social networks) from scale. You don’t have to have great data, but you need a LOT of data, for them to serve the purpose. There is a lot of room for systems that are the silver standard and the math enables a great deal of reliability for those outside of the traditional financial systems (many people). It doesn’t have to be perfect, it just has to be good enough.

tim333 3y ago

>How do they prevent fake virtual iris scanning devices from pretending that they scanned a person that doesn’t actually exist? Each scanner is registered, authorised, tracked etc. Presumably with a private key but also I think they have the location, operator details and so on for every one.

konschubert 3y ago
doesn't sound very decentralised to me ;)