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I actually don't think it sends a credible signal like that at all. I've been to several therapists, know people who've been in lots of therapy (unavoidable the

I actually don't think it sends a credible signal like that at all. I've been to several therapists, know people who've been in lots of therapy (unavoidable these days), and I don't think it leads to much if any self-improvement. It can produce plenty of insights, but insights almost never lead to change.

gerbilly 3y ago
> It can produce plenty of insights, but insights almost never lead to change. Insights by themselves can't won't lead to change, but they can be a starting point. Look at it this way, say I am overweight and want to get in shape. The insight that I need to eat less and exercise by itself of course won't make me immediately fit. But that insight combined with work and support might. Also therapy, to me isn't about self improvement, it's about feeling better in one's skin. Often it not that the presenting problem even goes away, but that the way you relate to it changes.
- Michelangelo11 3y ago
  > Look at it this way, say I am overweight and want to get in shape. The insight that I need to eat less and exercise by itself of course won't make me immediately fit. > But that insight combined with work and support might. Putting aside the fact that your example isn't actually an insight (diet and exercise as a way to lose weight is also something you hear suggested from every corner, although with more justification), the "insights" produced in therapy are supposed to lead to change largely on their own. That is, it's assumed the client already has all the resources needed but, poor dear, he's held back by flawed beliefs, which therapy is supposed to undo. Needless to say, this has little resemblance to reality. > Also therapy, to me isn't about self improvement, it's about feeling better in one's skin. Often it not that the presenting problem even goes away, but that the way you relate to it changes. Putting aside the fact that this kind of contradicts the first part of your post, where you argue for how therapy can in fact help solve your problems, sorry, this is pure cope. Changing the way you relate to a problem, in that sense, or reframing, is talking yourself into believing something bad isn't actually that bad. Auto-gaslighting with a therapist's assistance, really. I prefer to solve my problems instead of trying to trick myself into thinking they're not what they are.
  - gerbilly 3y ago
    Ha thanks, I love a good argument. >Putting aside the fact that your example isn't actually an insight So put it aside then, and think of your own better analogy. It changes nothing from the point I was making. > the "insights" produced in therapy are supposed to lead to change largely on their own. No one has believed this in a long time. > I prefer to solve my problems instead of trying to trick myself into thinking they're not what they are. So do I but sometimes things break, permanently. I can't bring dead people back to life, if I'm injured or disabled by an accident I can't 'fix' that, but I can find a way to change how I relate to that unfix-able problem. This goes beyond re-framing, of course. As to childhood experiences and trauma, they are real and often elicit means of coping which later become ingrained habits which can cause dysfunction later on. Therapy can help you recognise these (insight!) and then start you on the long slow path of unlearning them so they don't cause you problems anymore.
haswell 3y ago
Anecdotally, I’ve also been to several therapists, and after a few that didn’t fit, found one who focuses on the issues I’m dealing with, and the experience has changed my life. I have friends who have experienced the same. I also have friends who are frustrated by it all. Good care can be tough to find. This doesn’t invalidate the field, or the benefit of seeking help. I’d tell people to treat this like they would other life impacting health providers. Take charge of the situation, and leave providers behind who are not helpful. I do think too many people approach therapy like it’s a prescription. “Take this much, get this result”. I started with this mindset, and adjusted when I realized that it doesn’t make sense. All of that said, the main point was that talking about therapy in a dating context is more nuanced than “everyone should be in therapy”, and that some people look for this signal for understandable reasons. How credible that signal actually is, is another question. If you’re looking for “I’m working on myself”, that doesn’t imply an expectation that someone has reached enlightenment. Just that they’re trying to be better. A large number of people don’t seem to try at all, so I’d still argue that it’s a signal worth considering. But like most signals, it’s just a signal. It doesn’t guarantee anything.
- Michelangelo11 3y ago
  > Good care can be tough to find. This doesn’t invalidate the field, or the benefit of seeking help. I’d tell people to treat this like they would other life impacting health providers. Take charge of the situation, and leave providers behind who are not helpful. I do think too many people approach therapy like it’s a prescription. “Take this much, get this result”. The problem was not, as you imply, passivity on my part and an expectation that the therapist would deliver results with minimal involvement from me (I realize you didn't intend to belittle or dismiss me, but that's what the implication was). The problem was that the therapists were just plain awful. They would ghost me, use therapy session time for unrelated things, were attracted to me and couldn't deal with it, etc. When they weren't doing any of these things, "therapy" consisted largely of them trotting out empty platitudes, or doing roleplaying scenarios that I dutifully played along with but mostly found simplistic and pointless. Occasions on which something valuable happened were few and far between, and were always torpedoed by unprofessional behavior from the therapist that killed the therapeutic relationship (see the examples from earlier). Now, ironically, your own post strikes me as therapist-like behavior: you assumed what the cause of the problem was (passivity on my end), even though that did not happen at all, proceeded to give me advice on what to do ("Take charge of the situation, and leave providers behind who are not helpful" -- a startling insight indeed); advice that would apparently be simple to do, and would fix my problem. This is exactly how the therapists I've had the misfortune to work with operated: they would assume the client's issues are due to failing to see a simple solution (perhaps because of their "mistaken beliefs" or "bad mindset"), would point that out, and would expect the issues to be solved and, usually, a dose of reverence from the client. This, of course, bears essentially no resemblance to what it would take to help someone deal with a genuine, serious issue. All in all; your post, so reeking of the typical therapy mindset with all its incuriousness and condescension, only strengthens my belief that therapy is essentially worthless (except possibly for mild and superficial issues, e.g. if things are fine in your life but you have occasional panic attacks, etc.). And to bring it back to the original point: Based on the above, no, I don't think "in therapy" signals “I’m working on myself” in any meaningful sense. Plus, the stance that it does pretty much vindicates the view that everyone should be going to therapy, as it implies that therapy is a generally useful tool to help you become a better partner, and just about everyone wants to send the signal they're a good partner.

gerbilly 3y ago

> It can produce plenty of insights, but insights almost never lead to change. Insights by themselves can't won't lead to change, but they can be a starting point. Look at it this way, say I am overweight and want to get in shape. The insight that I need to eat less and exercise by itself of course won't make me immediately fit. But that insight combined with work and support might. Also therapy, to me isn't about self improvement, it's about feeling better in one's skin. Often it not that the presenting problem even goes away, but that the way you relate to it changes.

Michelangelo11 3y ago
> Look at it this way, say I am overweight and want to get in shape. The insight that I need to eat less and exercise by itself of course won't make me immediately fit. > But that insight combined with work and support might. Putting aside the fact that your example isn't actually an insight (diet and exercise as a way to lose weight is also something you hear suggested from every corner, although with more justification), the "insights" produced in therapy are supposed to lead to change largely on their own. That is, it's assumed the client already has all the resources needed but, poor dear, he's held back by flawed beliefs, which therapy is supposed to undo. Needless to say, this has little resemblance to reality. > Also therapy, to me isn't about self improvement, it's about feeling better in one's skin. Often it not that the presenting problem even goes away, but that the way you relate to it changes. Putting aside the fact that this kind of contradicts the first part of your post, where you argue for how therapy can in fact help solve your problems, sorry, this is pure cope. Changing the way you relate to a problem, in that sense, or reframing, is talking yourself into believing something bad isn't actually that bad. Auto-gaslighting with a therapist's assistance, really. I prefer to solve my problems instead of trying to trick myself into thinking they're not what they are.
- gerbilly 3y ago
  Ha thanks, I love a good argument. >Putting aside the fact that your example isn't actually an insight So put it aside then, and think of your own better analogy. It changes nothing from the point I was making. > the "insights" produced in therapy are supposed to lead to change largely on their own. No one has believed this in a long time. > I prefer to solve my problems instead of trying to trick myself into thinking they're not what they are. So do I but sometimes things break, permanently. I can't bring dead people back to life, if I'm injured or disabled by an accident I can't 'fix' that, but I can find a way to change how I relate to that unfix-able problem. This goes beyond re-framing, of course. As to childhood experiences and trauma, they are real and often elicit means of coping which later become ingrained habits which can cause dysfunction later on. Therapy can help you recognise these (insight!) and then start you on the long slow path of unlearning them so they don't cause you problems anymore.

haswell 3y ago

Anecdotally, I’ve also been to several therapists, and after a few that didn’t fit, found one who focuses on the issues I’m dealing with, and the experience has changed my life. I have friends who have experienced the same. I also have friends who are frustrated by it all. Good care can be tough to find. This doesn’t invalidate the field, or the benefit of seeking help. I’d tell people to treat this like they would other life impacting health providers. Take charge of the situation, and leave providers behind who are not helpful. I do think too many people approach therapy like it’s a prescription. “Take this much, get this result”. I started with this mindset, and adjusted when I realized that it doesn’t make sense. All of that said, the main point was that talking about therapy in a dating context is more nuanced than “everyone should be in therapy”, and that some people look for this signal for understandable reasons. How credible that signal actually is, is another question. If you’re looking for “I’m working on myself”, that doesn’t imply an expectation that someone has reached enlightenment. Just that they’re trying to be better. A large number of people don’t seem to try at all, so I’d still argue that it’s a signal worth considering. But like most signals, it’s just a signal. It doesn’t guarantee anything.

Michelangelo11 3y ago
> Good care can be tough to find. This doesn’t invalidate the field, or the benefit of seeking help. I’d tell people to treat this like they would other life impacting health providers. Take charge of the situation, and leave providers behind who are not helpful. I do think too many people approach therapy like it’s a prescription. “Take this much, get this result”. The problem was not, as you imply, passivity on my part and an expectation that the therapist would deliver results with minimal involvement from me (I realize you didn't intend to belittle or dismiss me, but that's what the implication was). The problem was that the therapists were just plain awful. They would ghost me, use therapy session time for unrelated things, were attracted to me and couldn't deal with it, etc. When they weren't doing any of these things, "therapy" consisted largely of them trotting out empty platitudes, or doing roleplaying scenarios that I dutifully played along with but mostly found simplistic and pointless. Occasions on which something valuable happened were few and far between, and were always torpedoed by unprofessional behavior from the therapist that killed the therapeutic relationship (see the examples from earlier). Now, ironically, your own post strikes me as therapist-like behavior: you assumed what the cause of the problem was (passivity on my end), even though that did not happen at all, proceeded to give me advice on what to do ("Take charge of the situation, and leave providers behind who are not helpful" -- a startling insight indeed); advice that would apparently be simple to do, and would fix my problem. This is exactly how the therapists I've had the misfortune to work with operated: they would assume the client's issues are due to failing to see a simple solution (perhaps because of their "mistaken beliefs" or "bad mindset"), would point that out, and would expect the issues to be solved and, usually, a dose of reverence from the client. This, of course, bears essentially no resemblance to what it would take to help someone deal with a genuine, serious issue. All in all; your post, so reeking of the typical therapy mindset with all its incuriousness and condescension, only strengthens my belief that therapy is essentially worthless (except possibly for mild and superficial issues, e.g. if things are fine in your life but you have occasional panic attacks, etc.). And to bring it back to the original point: Based on the above, no, I don't think "in therapy" signals “I’m working on myself” in any meaningful sense. Plus, the stance that it does pretty much vindicates the view that everyone should be going to therapy, as it implies that therapy is a generally useful tool to help you become a better partner, and just about everyone wants to send the signal they're a good partner.