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If there’s no solution within democracy then maybe it’s time for a solution outside of democracy

by jrsj 3y ago

PartiallyTyped 3y ago
The problem is the absence of democracy.
- jrsj 3y ago
  What I’m wondering then is: - How so? - What can be done to fix it? - Is there a viable path to getting there? the parent comment to me sounded like democracy as it exists in the UK basically led them down this path and now has them stuck in a death spiral
  - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
    https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/ https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/ Currently the UK vote is based on trying to get about 1/3rd of the country, in specific places, to vote for you, not 50%. It's a flawed democracy that has gradually evolved from an even more flawed democracy but now lags the state of the art by some margin.
- pcw888 3y ago
  I would say that it's not an absence of democracy but a population skew. The Boomer demographic has been a majority stakeholder in UK elections for a long time, but it's changing naturally every year. Now you are starting to see more policies aimed at the next marginal voter group. However, it's true, we're in a mess, and none of the major political parties seem to have a viable strategy.
bruce511 3y ago
You're going to get downvoted for that not by me though.) It's a serious point though, but unfortunately one that has copius evidence that the outcome of that approach is worse, not better. The problems with democracy are evident (brexit being a poster child.) The democratic successes are equally good (South Africa, Northern Ireland). The primary problem with alternate systems is that there's no way out. Once you have an authoritarian approach, if you don't like the authority you SOL. Basically it's all the worst bits of democracy without any of the up sides. Ultimately people vote, (or don't care) and get to live with the consequences.
- jrsj 3y ago
  Yeah, I generally agree with all of that. At the same time, if you reach a point where breaking democracy becomes the only way to survive an existential threat, then it’s do or die. So considering how severe those consequences are, something would need to be done to prevent that outcome if that’s the trajectory you’re on.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    Britain's democracy is in need of reform, not further damage. The electoral system is unrepresentative (the more representative system used to elect the mayor of London was recently changed to FPTP). The upper house is composed of people nominated by the government, children of nobles and bishops. In the last few years, the traditional behaviour expected in Parliament — not to lie — has been lost. As the most recent example, when Johnson resigned the election[1] for his replacement was heralded as a win for the Conservative party. The campaign centred around green policies. The Conservative party has fewer votes than Labour + Green, but still takes all the power. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Uxbridge_and_South_Ruislip_by-election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Uxbridge_and_South_Ruisli...
- whatwhaaaaat 3y ago
  I don’t get why brexit is constantly brought up as the cause of some of this rather than a reaction. This whole thread and story has folks explaining how this has been a slow creep over 30+ years.
  - nvm0n1 3y ago
    There are a lot of people who don't believe in local control or the concept of an independent nation state. They imagine that in their preferred future all governments are merged into one, and regional differences are reduced to food, drink and local dances. Up until Brexit they imagined this future as glorious, popular and inevitable. After they realized it wasn't all that popular nor inevitable, and have been on a rear guard action to blame everything on it ever since. They hope that if they lie big enough, often enough, the lies will stick and one day this horrific aberration can be reversed. Hence why Brexit is often described as the cause of every problem the UK has even if those problems existed before then, or if no change is visible on the data, etc.
acdha 3y ago
Or perhaps improving the health of that democracy. It’s probably not a coincidence, for example, that countries with strong Murdoch media presences are better for the ultra rich but worse for everyone else.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
Yes, but what's the alternative? "Democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried." - Churchill. Yes, Democracy has lots of faults, but there aren't any better alternatives.
- drewcoo 3y ago
  > Yes, Democracy has lots of faults, but there aren't any better alternatives. That's a twist on the Churchill quote. Churchill didn't say there are no better alternatives. Just no better that we've tried.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Churchill was one of the strongest defenders of democracy in the 20th century. Read his speech in its entirety. He definitely did not believe that there were any better alternatives to Democracy, tried or untried. At the time he gave his speech Communism was seen by many as much more successful than Democracy.
frankreyes 3y ago
The UK already has a king. I think this is the only real reason: people there are still subjects to their King and Government.

If there’s no solution within democracy then maybe it’s time for a solution outside of democracy

by jrsj 3y ago

If there’s no solution within democracy then maybe it’s time for a solution outside of democracy

PartiallyTyped 3y ago

The problem is the absence of democracy.

jrsj 3y ago
What I’m wondering then is: - How so? - What can be done to fix it? - Is there a viable path to getting there? the parent comment to me sounded like democracy as it exists in the UK basically led them down this path and now has them stuck in a death spiral
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/ https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/ Currently the UK vote is based on trying to get about 1/3rd of the country, in specific places, to vote for you, not 50%. It's a flawed democracy that has gradually evolved from an even more flawed democracy but now lags the state of the art by some margin.
pcw888 3y ago
I would say that it's not an absence of democracy but a population skew. The Boomer demographic has been a majority stakeholder in UK elections for a long time, but it's changing naturally every year. Now you are starting to see more policies aimed at the next marginal voter group. However, it's true, we're in a mess, and none of the major political parties seem to have a viable strategy.

bruce511 3y ago

You're going to get downvoted for that not by me though.) It's a serious point though, but unfortunately one that has copius evidence that the outcome of that approach is worse, not better. The problems with democracy are evident (brexit being a poster child.) The democratic successes are equally good (South Africa, Northern Ireland). The primary problem with alternate systems is that there's no way out. Once you have an authoritarian approach, if you don't like the authority you SOL. Basically it's all the worst bits of democracy without any of the up sides. Ultimately people vote, (or don't care) and get to live with the consequences.

jrsj 3y ago
Yeah, I generally agree with all of that. At the same time, if you reach a point where breaking democracy becomes the only way to survive an existential threat, then it’s do or die. So considering how severe those consequences are, something would need to be done to prevent that outcome if that’s the trajectory you’re on.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  Britain's democracy is in need of reform, not further damage. The electoral system is unrepresentative (the more representative system used to elect the mayor of London was recently changed to FPTP). The upper house is composed of people nominated by the government, children of nobles and bishops. In the last few years, the traditional behaviour expected in Parliament — not to lie — has been lost. As the most recent example, when Johnson resigned the election[1] for his replacement was heralded as a win for the Conservative party. The campaign centred around green policies. The Conservative party has fewer votes than Labour + Green, but still takes all the power. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Uxbridge_and_South_Ruislip_by-election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Uxbridge_and_South_Ruisli...
whatwhaaaaat 3y ago
I don’t get why brexit is constantly brought up as the cause of some of this rather than a reaction. This whole thread and story has folks explaining how this has been a slow creep over 30+ years.
- nvm0n1 3y ago
  There are a lot of people who don't believe in local control or the concept of an independent nation state. They imagine that in their preferred future all governments are merged into one, and regional differences are reduced to food, drink and local dances. Up until Brexit they imagined this future as glorious, popular and inevitable. After they realized it wasn't all that popular nor inevitable, and have been on a rear guard action to blame everything on it ever since. They hope that if they lie big enough, often enough, the lies will stick and one day this horrific aberration can be reversed. Hence why Brexit is often described as the cause of every problem the UK has even if those problems existed before then, or if no change is visible on the data, etc.

acdha 3y ago

Or perhaps improving the health of that democracy. It’s probably not a coincidence, for example, that countries with strong Murdoch media presences are better for the ultra rich but worse for everyone else.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

Yes, but what's the alternative? "Democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried." - Churchill. Yes, Democracy has lots of faults, but there aren't any better alternatives.

drewcoo 3y ago
> Yes, Democracy has lots of faults, but there aren't any better alternatives. That's a twist on the Churchill quote. Churchill didn't say there are no better alternatives. Just no better that we've tried.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  Churchill was one of the strongest defenders of democracy in the 20th century. Read his speech in its entirety. He definitely did not believe that there were any better alternatives to Democracy, tried or untried. At the time he gave his speech Communism was seen by many as much more successful than Democracy.

frankreyes 3y ago

The UK already has a king. I think this is the only real reason: people there are still subjects to their King and Government.