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The empty circle is a common Western symbol for “off”, as in power switches. It associates with zero == false == no. I suspect this is why Sony swapped the mea

by pavlov 3y ago

The empty circle is a common Western symbol for “off”, as in power switches. It associates with zero == false == no. I suspect this is why Sony swapped the meanings. The meaning of an X symbol isn’t universal even in Europe, but it’s often used to mark a point of interest or active selection (as in ticking boxes, or “X marks the spot”).

chrisacky 3y ago
I wonder if this is why Nintendo reversed the meaning of B A on their controllers. I hate that the switch does this. But it means sense if everyone in Japan is used to that behaviour because of the swapping of X and O on Playstation.
- debugnik 3y ago
  What do you mean reversed? The NES already assigned letters right-to-left: B A! Controllers typically used sets of A-B(-C) X-Y(-Z) face buttons, A/B intuitively meaning ok/back however they were laid out, usually in straight or angled rows assigned left-to-right (e.g. Sega) or right-to-left (e.g. Nintendo). The angled layouts are the modern Xbox and Nintendo layouts (which Nintendo used since forever and Xbox I guess inherited from their Windows CE involvement with Sega). But Sony came up with the symbols instead, so Japanese devs followed the maru/batsu metaphor with circle/X, whereas early western games used X/triangle until they switched to X/circle, and those became official regional layouts until the PS5 switched Japan to X/circle.
  - firen777 3y ago
    This mess of different symbols is why video game should allow users to change the button prompt to their preferred symbol, especially games with QTE.
    - debugnik 3y ago
      I'm fine with different controllers displaying different symbols for the same button, but random-button QTEs and games based around entirely contextual prompts are the bottom of the barrel of gaming. I've seen so many people fail at games by Quantic Dream and Supermassive simply because they were playing with an unfamilar controller. The labels exist to help the game teach its control scheme, not to make players memorise the layout itself. But of course, games without consistent game mechanics don't have any control scheme to teach.
- kyle-rb 3y ago
  The Switch didn't change the meaning of A and B; the OS and all first-party Nintendo games that I've seen use A=confirm and B=cancel, which has been the case for a long time. There are some games I've played on the Switch that use B=confirm, I think usually so that button layout is the same across consoles.
thfuran 3y ago
>The empty circle is a common Western symbol for “off”, as in power switches. Was that the case when the PlayStation initially released?
- zambal 3y ago
  Yes, using I/O as on/off, especially on power switches, for sure predates PlayStations.
- fsckboy 3y ago
  based only on my memory, when computers started to get small enough to have power switches that I had access to, the power toggle switches were marked with 0 and 1, and no other appliances had that, so it was basically engineers of digital devices marking things with some combination of obvious logic and humor. the on-off-merged-in-one-pushbutton 0 with a 1 at 12 oclock (in the circle of the 0) came later, I assume out of Europe (Asia?), because suddenly all at once everything had them, mid 90s I think. That was also the beginning of globalization (meaning, identical products sold everywhere) and also "on/off are advisories, not switches", which was probably all just coincidental timing. (I don't think the 0/1 toggle computer power switch labelling somehow had more influence over Europeans or Asians than it did over Americans, but I dunno, engineers are pretty universal)
  - pests 3y ago
    > the on-off-merged-in-one-pushbutton 0 I was really struggling to figure out what symbol you were talking about and I couldn't come up with anything. Looked it up and __you mean the power_ icon! I never considered it was made up of the 1 and 0 used for on/off states.
    - JdeBP 3y ago
      It's not a power off symbol. It's a standby symbol.
  - JdeBP 3y ago
    Your memory is serving you very ill. These various symbols were standardized in 1973. The one that you are searching for a name for is the standby symbol. Standby buttons do not actually power computers off. (Circuitry that handles waking up from standby is, of course, still powered on.) https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iec:grs:60417:5009 https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iec:grs:60417:5009
fsckboy 3y ago
> X symbol isn’t universal even in Europe, but it’s often used to mark a point of interest or active selection X is commonly used for crossing things out, and marking things wrong

by pavlov 3y ago

chrisacky 3y ago

I wonder if this is why Nintendo reversed the meaning of B A on their controllers. I hate that the switch does this. But it means sense if everyone in Japan is used to that behaviour because of the swapping of X and O on Playstation.

debugnik 3y ago
What do you mean reversed? The NES already assigned letters right-to-left: B A! Controllers typically used sets of A-B(-C) X-Y(-Z) face buttons, A/B intuitively meaning ok/back however they were laid out, usually in straight or angled rows assigned left-to-right (e.g. Sega) or right-to-left (e.g. Nintendo). The angled layouts are the modern Xbox and Nintendo layouts (which Nintendo used since forever and Xbox I guess inherited from their Windows CE involvement with Sega). But Sony came up with the symbols instead, so Japanese devs followed the maru/batsu metaphor with circle/X, whereas early western games used X/triangle until they switched to X/circle, and those became official regional layouts until the PS5 switched Japan to X/circle.
- firen777 3y ago
  This mess of different symbols is why video game should allow users to change the button prompt to their preferred symbol, especially games with QTE.
  - debugnik 3y ago
    I'm fine with different controllers displaying different symbols for the same button, but random-button QTEs and games based around entirely contextual prompts are the bottom of the barrel of gaming. I've seen so many people fail at games by Quantic Dream and Supermassive simply because they were playing with an unfamilar controller. The labels exist to help the game teach its control scheme, not to make players memorise the layout itself. But of course, games without consistent game mechanics don't have any control scheme to teach.
kyle-rb 3y ago
The Switch didn't change the meaning of A and B; the OS and all first-party Nintendo games that I've seen use A=confirm and B=cancel, which has been the case for a long time. There are some games I've played on the Switch that use B=confirm, I think usually so that button layout is the same across consoles.

thfuran 3y ago

>The empty circle is a common Western symbol for “off”, as in power switches. Was that the case when the PlayStation initially released?

zambal 3y ago
Yes, using I/O as on/off, especially on power switches, for sure predates PlayStations.
fsckboy 3y ago
based only on my memory, when computers started to get small enough to have power switches that I had access to, the power toggle switches were marked with 0 and 1, and no other appliances had that, so it was basically engineers of digital devices marking things with some combination of obvious logic and humor. the on-off-merged-in-one-pushbutton 0 with a 1 at 12 oclock (in the circle of the 0) came later, I assume out of Europe (Asia?), because suddenly all at once everything had them, mid 90s I think. That was also the beginning of globalization (meaning, identical products sold everywhere) and also "on/off are advisories, not switches", which was probably all just coincidental timing. (I don't think the 0/1 toggle computer power switch labelling somehow had more influence over Europeans or Asians than it did over Americans, but I dunno, engineers are pretty universal)
- pests 3y ago
  > the on-off-merged-in-one-pushbutton 0 I was really struggling to figure out what symbol you were talking about and I couldn't come up with anything. Looked it up and __you mean the power_ icon! I never considered it was made up of the 1 and 0 used for on/off states.
  - JdeBP 3y ago
    It's not a power off symbol. It's a standby symbol.
- JdeBP 3y ago
  Your memory is serving you very ill. These various symbols were standardized in 1973. The one that you are searching for a name for is the standby symbol. Standby buttons do not actually power computers off. (Circuitry that handles waking up from standby is, of course, still powered on.) https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iec:grs:60417:5009 https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iec:grs:60417:5009

fsckboy 3y ago

> X symbol isn’t universal even in Europe, but it’s often used to mark a point of interest or active selection X is commonly used for crossing things out, and marking things wrong