4 ms·

There’s no such thing as “reasonable taxation” because it’s a subjective concept. It’s no better than saying “the rich are not paying their fair share”. Say yo

by koolba 3y ago

There’s no such thing as “reasonable taxation” because it’s a subjective concept. It’s no better than saying “the rich are not paying their fair share”. Say you’re settling the tab for big dinner at a restaurant, if your rich friend pays for the steak he ordered, is that his fair share? If there’s 100 of you and he pays for 1/100 of the check, is that his fair share? What if he pays for half the tab, is that enough to be his fair share? Is it reasonable for society, through taxes, to take more than half of what you earn? (e.g., in CA the top brackets out you at 37% federal + 12.3% State = 49.3% tax rate. And that’s before sales tax!)

elmalto 3y ago
Sure as long as the society spends it on things that it deems important. Why is money made from money not taxed the same money made from labor? On the other hand, if money is considered free speech in the US, how can we even allow taxation at all? Isn’t taxation a form of censorship?
markdown 3y ago
> Is it reasonable for society, through taxes, to take more than half of what you earn? So long as you have more than enough to live on, absolutely. If you make a billion dollars, then the govt taking 501 million is the absolute minimum that should be expected. Better they take 999 million and leave you the million dollars, as you don't need more than that to survive. Further, the only reason you made a billion was from not paying the workers a living wage. The government's job is to redistribute the money so that everyone gets a fair share.
- t43562 3y ago
  The point of people being wealthy is that they get to take risks based on their judgement and we hope that benefits everyone. Without a reward nobody will take risks. Governments don't take political risks so you cannot expect them to be the sole chance takers in the economy. What we obviously don't want is people who find a way to dump risk on everyone else so that they cannot fail. Not paying a living wage is a way to do that for example.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - markdown 3y ago
    Yup. $1M/yr (the example I provided above) is a massive reward, so taxation in this way (leaving the risk taker huge rewards) is a great way to encourage entrepreneurship while ensuring a better society by using the extra money (taxed) to give him better streets, lower crime, and a better educated workforce/neighbours.
    - t43562 3y ago
      That prevents a person from taking their next bigger risk e.g. building a factory and hoping that the products it makes will sell. If we only had better streets we'd be a bit like the Romans - bogged down trying to satisfy everyone with centuries old technology.
PrimeMcFly 3y ago
> There’s no such thing as “reasonable taxation” because it’s a subjective concept. I disagree. There are models of economics that can project taxation rates that will have better outcomes for society. It's far from being primarily subjective.
- taxinaut 3y ago
  That’s just you defining reasonable though. Others (few) would say any taxation at all is unreasonable. Still others (plenty more) would say taxes should apply at the same rate to all people to be reasonable. You’re saying “taxes should have a good societal outcome to be reasonable”. Yours is the best in my opinion but it’s still subjective.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    > That’s just you defining reasonable though. I would say it is reasonable, period, per the dictionary definition. People can redefine words as they like, it doesn't mean anything. It's not subjective when we are using objective standards and theory to produce a result with the goal of objectively leading to better quality of life for everyone. If the only subjectivity that comes in is because people can define reasonable I don't think that makes it subjective at all.
  - polygamous_bat 3y ago
    > Others (few) would say any taxation at all is unreasonable. Some people in society (possibly because of unfortunate mental health issues) like to stand in the streets and fling shit at others. We do not argue over the subjective reasonableness of shit-flinging, because as a civil society we are far past that point.
kjandersen 3y ago
(I wrote this comment as a _reaction_ to yours -- it turned out not to be a _response_ to it, so I apologise if I seem to put words in your mouth.) I have this idea rummaging about that I have never quite seen articulated in these discussions. The earnings of "rich friends" are often seen as a singular, isolated achievement, and fairness is then discussed as relative to that: "they earned it, so is it fair to take X%?" It seems to me that society at large facilitates those earnings. The roads that their workers drive on, the water facility that supplies the school that their employees send their children to. The unemployment safety net that lets employees take risks and take the job of the industrialist... The list is endless. All this is the net sum of what was _also_ given to (taken by?) the person that makes a billion dollars. In this context I think the "fairness" argument against taxation becomes weaker.
- twoodfin 3y ago
  It doesn’t become weaker unless you can cogently express a limiting principle to your argument: - Why isn’t it fair to take 99% of the highest earners’ income? - Why isn’t it fair to take 50% of the median earner’s income? They, too, drive on roads and send their children to school.
  - taxinaut 3y ago
    Another good one: Why is it fair to take X% of earnings made over 2 years, but Y>X % if earned over 1 year, for the same total earnings? Looking for fairness to me is a fools errand. It’s not even a real thing, nor is it something any 2 people will universally agree on. Instead we should only look to what a taxation regime accomplishes.
    - Timon3 3y ago
      > Looking for fairness to me is a fools errand. It’s not even a real thing, nor is it something any 2 people will universally agree on. Maybe not from a distance, but there are ways for multiple people to come to a fair conclusion. The most basic example are two children who have to share something, where one cuts the thing to be shared, and the other is allowed choice of which half he wants. The important thing is: incentives for unfairness must be removed. If someone can get ahead by being unfair, they will do so. The only way to get around this is to make sure the people deciding the rules do not know where they'll end up, so they must be as fair as possible to improve their own situation.
toyg 3y ago
Rich friends used to settle the whole tab, no questions asked. Generosity was a value. A rich friend arguing over the details of a tab is just an asshole.
- nobodyandproud 3y ago
  There are many assholes. Also, many are generous to their peers and social circles but malicious anyone they consider beneath them and on the “outside”. I saw this firsthand in my workplace (after hours)—a company that heavily promotes diversity, etc.—and it left me distraught for a few weeks. These assholes are the hardest to spot.
- zo1 3y ago
  Not just rich friends, some cultures have a big thing for paying for your friends as a celebratory act. You take turns though after many years which averages out anyways though. It helps those in temporary bad times, too.
- JKCalhoun 3y ago
  Further, my rich friend just made enough on his/her investments to cover the entire meal before we were even seated at the table, ha ha.
nobodyandproud 3y ago
Your analogy is too simplistic, so it misrepesents today’s situation A better analogy of today’s would be so: - Your rich friend and his 19 employees order 20 steaks - Somehow and out of sight the rich friend takes 19 of the steaks, takes 9/10th of each steak for himself, and then replaces them with 19 derived kiddie meals containing 1/10th the steak. - Your rich friend then points out that he and his employees only should pay for 2.9 steaks. - The bill and cost remains the same (100 steaks), so the remaining 80 people foot the bill for 97.1 steaks.
- nobodyandproud 3y ago
  After I had my morning beverage, I realized “steak appetizer” would’ve been better than “kiddie meal”.
UncleMeat 3y ago
For a single person, you'll hit that tax bracket after more than $500,000 in income. This is an absolutely enormous amount of money - roughly 10x the median income. I have absolutely zero problem with income beyond this amount being taxed at 50%. I make around $600,000. My effective federal tax rate is in the low-mid 20s. I'd have to make way way way more money for my effective federal + state rates to approach 50%.
- zo1 3y ago
  What about sales tax, VAT, fuel levies, consumption taxes, gift taxes, inheritance taxes, etc. Your state or country may not have all of the above. But they are all there to tax you to ridiculous amounts but not at the "start". Same goes for withholding or "Pay as you earn" taxes which serve to not let you see how much taxes you are paying. No one will be happy if more than half their labour is taken from then. We can talk feel good and helping the community and needy all you want, but once you cross that threshold it will be very obvious to a lot of people that they have no choice in the matter and that it's a few steps away from slavery.
  - UncleMeat 3y ago
    > What about sales tax, VAT, fuel levies, consumption taxes, gift taxes, inheritance taxes, etc. Your state or country may not have all of the above. Sales tax adds less than 1% to my overall effective tax rate. Sales taxes are disproportionately low for high earners because high earners save larger portions of their income rather than spending it. Gift and inheritance taxes don't start until eight figures. Not exactly something I'm especially worried about. > Same goes for withholding or "Pay as you earn" taxes which serve to not let you see how much taxes you are paying. ??? You can adjust your W4. The very wealthy also have considerably more flexibility with withholding since less of their income is W2 income from an employer. > No one will be happy if more than half their labour is taken from then. If I made the 7+ figures annually or whatever I needed to approach 50% effective taxation I'd be pretty damn happy. If my taxes were raised considerably without a change in my income it wouldn't really change my life either. I'd just retire early a little bit later. > it's a few steps away from slavery Extremely high earners who have very high effective tax rates have some options available to them. They can change careers or work less to reduce their income. They'd just earn an income that was more comparable to the typical worker. Or they could stop working entirely - extremely high earners have plenty of opportunity to save enough money that they could live off a typical budget indefinitely using their savings. Or they can advocate politically for policies they prefer - even by spending their money to influence elections via nearly unlimited and unbounded political contributions. Slaves can be arrested, tortured, and murdered for fleeing their captors. Heck, they can be tortured and murdered pretty much for no reason whatsoever. They can be raped and forced to bear their children of their captors. Their children (whether conceived through consent or through rape) can be permanently taken from them and also forced into slavery. They can have literacy denied to them. They can be worked to the bone in extreme conditions. And all this for a fat zero dollars in income over their entire lives. So I'd say that there are more than "a few steps" between these things.
HWR_14 3y ago
I get that 50% is a nice round number, but what's the moral or reasonable significance of that? Meanwhile, you're looking at top marginal rates. That's not the total rate. A single person making $500k a year has a total tax rate (federal plus state) of 41%. It gots up to 46% at $1,000,000/yr. And the rate goes down if they marry, have kids, etc.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
> It’s no better than saying “the rich are not paying their fair share”. We (the people) want certain services of the government we elect — services that cost money. If you tax the rich less, the poor and working class will therefore have to carry a larger burden. That seems pretty straightforward.
macintux 3y ago
I think the people making the most money have benefited enormously from government largesse. Tax me more, please!

by koolba 3y ago

elmalto 3y ago

Sure as long as the society spends it on things that it deems important. Why is money made from money not taxed the same money made from labor? On the other hand, if money is considered free speech in the US, how can we even allow taxation at all? Isn’t taxation a form of censorship?

markdown 3y ago

> Is it reasonable for society, through taxes, to take more than half of what you earn? So long as you have more than enough to live on, absolutely. If you make a billion dollars, then the govt taking 501 million is the absolute minimum that should be expected. Better they take 999 million and leave you the million dollars, as you don't need more than that to survive. Further, the only reason you made a billion was from not paying the workers a living wage. The government's job is to redistribute the money so that everyone gets a fair share.

t43562 3y ago
The point of people being wealthy is that they get to take risks based on their judgement and we hope that benefits everyone. Without a reward nobody will take risks. Governments don't take political risks so you cannot expect them to be the sole chance takers in the economy. What we obviously don't want is people who find a way to dump risk on everyone else so that they cannot fail. Not paying a living wage is a way to do that for example.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- markdown 3y ago
  Yup. $1M/yr (the example I provided above) is a massive reward, so taxation in this way (leaving the risk taker huge rewards) is a great way to encourage entrepreneurship while ensuring a better society by using the extra money (taxed) to give him better streets, lower crime, and a better educated workforce/neighbours.
  - t43562 3y ago
    That prevents a person from taking their next bigger risk e.g. building a factory and hoping that the products it makes will sell. If we only had better streets we'd be a bit like the Romans - bogged down trying to satisfy everyone with centuries old technology.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago

> There’s no such thing as “reasonable taxation” because it’s a subjective concept. I disagree. There are models of economics that can project taxation rates that will have better outcomes for society. It's far from being primarily subjective.

taxinaut 3y ago
That’s just you defining reasonable though. Others (few) would say any taxation at all is unreasonable. Still others (plenty more) would say taxes should apply at the same rate to all people to be reasonable. You’re saying “taxes should have a good societal outcome to be reasonable”. Yours is the best in my opinion but it’s still subjective.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  > That’s just you defining reasonable though. I would say it is reasonable, period, per the dictionary definition. People can redefine words as they like, it doesn't mean anything. It's not subjective when we are using objective standards and theory to produce a result with the goal of objectively leading to better quality of life for everyone. If the only subjectivity that comes in is because people can define reasonable I don't think that makes it subjective at all.
- polygamous_bat 3y ago
  > Others (few) would say any taxation at all is unreasonable. Some people in society (possibly because of unfortunate mental health issues) like to stand in the streets and fling shit at others. We do not argue over the subjective reasonableness of shit-flinging, because as a civil society we are far past that point.

kjandersen 3y ago

(I wrote this comment as a _reaction_ to yours -- it turned out not to be a _response_ to it, so I apologise if I seem to put words in your mouth.) I have this idea rummaging about that I have never quite seen articulated in these discussions. The earnings of "rich friends" are often seen as a singular, isolated achievement, and fairness is then discussed as relative to that: "they earned it, so is it fair to take X%?" It seems to me that society at large facilitates those earnings. The roads that their workers drive on, the water facility that supplies the school that their employees send their children to. The unemployment safety net that lets employees take risks and take the job of the industrialist... The list is endless. All this is the net sum of what was _also_ given to (taken by?) the person that makes a billion dollars. In this context I think the "fairness" argument against taxation becomes weaker.

twoodfin 3y ago
It doesn’t become weaker unless you can cogently express a limiting principle to your argument: - Why isn’t it fair to take 99% of the highest earners’ income? - Why isn’t it fair to take 50% of the median earner’s income? They, too, drive on roads and send their children to school.
- taxinaut 3y ago
  Another good one: Why is it fair to take X% of earnings made over 2 years, but Y>X % if earned over 1 year, for the same total earnings? Looking for fairness to me is a fools errand. It’s not even a real thing, nor is it something any 2 people will universally agree on. Instead we should only look to what a taxation regime accomplishes.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    > Looking for fairness to me is a fools errand. It’s not even a real thing, nor is it something any 2 people will universally agree on. Maybe not from a distance, but there are ways for multiple people to come to a fair conclusion. The most basic example are two children who have to share something, where one cuts the thing to be shared, and the other is allowed choice of which half he wants. The important thing is: incentives for unfairness must be removed. If someone can get ahead by being unfair, they will do so. The only way to get around this is to make sure the people deciding the rules do not know where they'll end up, so they must be as fair as possible to improve their own situation.

toyg 3y ago

Rich friends used to settle the whole tab, no questions asked. Generosity was a value. A rich friend arguing over the details of a tab is just an asshole.

nobodyandproud 3y ago
There are many assholes. Also, many are generous to their peers and social circles but malicious anyone they consider beneath them and on the “outside”. I saw this firsthand in my workplace (after hours)—a company that heavily promotes diversity, etc.—and it left me distraught for a few weeks. These assholes are the hardest to spot.
zo1 3y ago
Not just rich friends, some cultures have a big thing for paying for your friends as a celebratory act. You take turns though after many years which averages out anyways though. It helps those in temporary bad times, too.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
Further, my rich friend just made enough on his/her investments to cover the entire meal before we were even seated at the table, ha ha.

nobodyandproud 3y ago

Your analogy is too simplistic, so it misrepesents today’s situation A better analogy of today’s would be so: - Your rich friend and his 19 employees order 20 steaks - Somehow and out of sight the rich friend takes 19 of the steaks, takes 9/10th of each steak for himself, and then replaces them with 19 derived kiddie meals containing 1/10th the steak. - Your rich friend then points out that he and his employees only should pay for 2.9 steaks. - The bill and cost remains the same (100 steaks), so the remaining 80 people foot the bill for 97.1 steaks.

nobodyandproud 3y ago
After I had my morning beverage, I realized “steak appetizer” would’ve been better than “kiddie meal”.

UncleMeat 3y ago

For a single person, you'll hit that tax bracket after more than $500,000 in income. This is an absolutely enormous amount of money - roughly 10x the median income. I have absolutely zero problem with income beyond this amount being taxed at 50%. I make around $600,000. My effective federal tax rate is in the low-mid 20s. I'd have to make way way way more money for my effective federal + state rates to approach 50%.

zo1 3y ago
What about sales tax, VAT, fuel levies, consumption taxes, gift taxes, inheritance taxes, etc. Your state or country may not have all of the above. But they are all there to tax you to ridiculous amounts but not at the "start". Same goes for withholding or "Pay as you earn" taxes which serve to not let you see how much taxes you are paying. No one will be happy if more than half their labour is taken from then. We can talk feel good and helping the community and needy all you want, but once you cross that threshold it will be very obvious to a lot of people that they have no choice in the matter and that it's a few steps away from slavery.
- UncleMeat 3y ago
  > What about sales tax, VAT, fuel levies, consumption taxes, gift taxes, inheritance taxes, etc. Your state or country may not have all of the above. Sales tax adds less than 1% to my overall effective tax rate. Sales taxes are disproportionately low for high earners because high earners save larger portions of their income rather than spending it. Gift and inheritance taxes don't start until eight figures. Not exactly something I'm especially worried about. > Same goes for withholding or "Pay as you earn" taxes which serve to not let you see how much taxes you are paying. ??? You can adjust your W4. The very wealthy also have considerably more flexibility with withholding since less of their income is W2 income from an employer. > No one will be happy if more than half their labour is taken from then. If I made the 7+ figures annually or whatever I needed to approach 50% effective taxation I'd be pretty damn happy. If my taxes were raised considerably without a change in my income it wouldn't really change my life either. I'd just retire early a little bit later. > it's a few steps away from slavery Extremely high earners who have very high effective tax rates have some options available to them. They can change careers or work less to reduce their income. They'd just earn an income that was more comparable to the typical worker. Or they could stop working entirely - extremely high earners have plenty of opportunity to save enough money that they could live off a typical budget indefinitely using their savings. Or they can advocate politically for policies they prefer - even by spending their money to influence elections via nearly unlimited and unbounded political contributions. Slaves can be arrested, tortured, and murdered for fleeing their captors. Heck, they can be tortured and murdered pretty much for no reason whatsoever. They can be raped and forced to bear their children of their captors. Their children (whether conceived through consent or through rape) can be permanently taken from them and also forced into slavery. They can have literacy denied to them. They can be worked to the bone in extreme conditions. And all this for a fat zero dollars in income over their entire lives. So I'd say that there are more than "a few steps" between these things.

HWR_14 3y ago

I get that 50% is a nice round number, but what's the moral or reasonable significance of that? Meanwhile, you're looking at top marginal rates. That's not the total rate. A single person making $500k a year has a total tax rate (federal plus state) of 41%. It gots up to 46% at $1,000,000/yr. And the rate goes down if they marry, have kids, etc.

JKCalhoun 3y ago

> It’s no better than saying “the rich are not paying their fair share”. We (the people) want certain services of the government we elect — services that cost money. If you tax the rich less, the poor and working class will therefore have to carry a larger burden. That seems pretty straightforward.

macintux 3y ago

I think the people making the most money have benefited enormously from government largesse. Tax me more, please!