5 ms·

Obviously we don't have the full context of prior communication, but the message screenshot is super passive aggressive ("just a little reminder you're not a ma

by saghm 3y ago

Obviously we don't have the full context of prior communication, but the message screenshot is super passive aggressive ("just a little reminder you're not a maintainer" when obviously both parties are aware, "you're welcome to send us patches that we will review if we want to" very implying that the patches might just be ignored). It's possible the libreboot author also wasn't communicating professionally either, but I don't think that really warrants a response like that either. If you actually want to convince someone to cease doing something, it seems better to just to stick to cold, formal language; writing something like this makes it seem more like an attempt to rile someone up rather than an attempt at legal enforcement.

Atotalnoob 3y ago
A maintainer shouldn't be directly sending a C&D, they'd likely have their lawyers do it. GNU will probably back pedal
- Atotalnoob 3y ago
  Actually, it is likely the libreboot person is in the wrong, she has been involved in a lot of drama
- ysavir 3y ago
  But this isn't really a C&D letter. It's just a request to stop using their name. Feels like Rowe is assigning it the C&D label, probably since it makes things sound more dramatic, when it really isn't.
whstl 3y ago
The fact that the person who sent the C&D email allegedly tried to "take over" the Libreboot name (according to TFA) is also not a good look. I found this: https://libreboot.at https://libreboot.at > Who are we? Denis ‘GNUtoo’ Carikli and Adrien ‘neox’ Bourmault. We created this and maintain it. > take a stand for fully free software is to change URLs across the web from <libreboot.org> to <libreboot.at>, and to let people know that no other version of Libreboot is reliably free software
- evasb 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - whstl 3y ago
    I have no idea who those people are and their pasts, and have no horse in this race, but according to the https://libreboot.at https://libreboot.at website by Adrien Bourmault, Leah was the founder of the project. According to this [1], the alleged takeover you mention not only didn't involve Adrien or Denis Carikli, it also happened in 2021, two years before the creation of https://libreboot.at https://libreboot.at, which seems to be from 2023, and GNU Boot, that succeeded libreboot.at [2] [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20210331005023/https://libreboot.org/news/resignations.html https://web.archive.org/web/20210331005023/https://libreboot... or https://www.andrewrobbins.info/libreboot.html https://www.andrewrobbins.info/libreboot.html if you want a third-party [2] https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/libreboot-devel/2023-03/threads.html https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/libreboot-devel/2023-0... Either way, it seems that if there was any problem around the usage of the GNU Boot name, it was solved by adding disclaimers galore: http://notgnuboot.vimuser.org/ http://notgnuboot.vimuser.org/ To me the disclaimers above show enough good faith. Meanwhile https://libreboot.at https://libreboot.at continues up. I don't think we should be that harsh and accusatory to someone after they actually comply with the request of changing a page name and adding disclaimers.
    - Propelloni 3y ago
      It appears to be a bonfire of vanities on all sides. One side goes "I use the trust you invested in me to block you from project resources, because my other project is soo much better but has less name-recognition." The other side goes "We are more pure, more righteous, and more petty at the same time! Let's show the other side by registering a confusing domain name and release a similiar but still different software with a long blurb why the other side is bad and must be destroyed! Oh yeah, and let's write scathing e-mails so nobody misses that we are petty." This seems so weird to me. Why invest the energy? In the olden days we'd just fork and get to work.
neilv 3y ago
I have to remind myself not to read too much into such things, for three reasons that we all know, but which may bear repeating to ourselves: 1. Open source is global, and not everyone is a native speaker of English. 2. Among English speakers, not everyone has the same cultural conventions and nuances. Even within US cities, you can drive 15 minutes, and find very different conventions. And culture in Boston isn't the same as in the Bay Area, isn't the same as in Bolivia. 3. Even within the same culture, not everyone picks up on signals in language to the same degree (whether perceiving or sending). And some people who think they're picking up on signals are conflating with biases more than some others do. I say I have to remind myself, because this still hits me. For example, when I'm searching certain bug databases, trying to solve an annoying problem, and some prolific volunteer commenting on a bug report there speaks in a manner that comes off as brusque or dismissive. Where they're from (across the Atlantic from me), maybe it's interpreted as professional or capable, and is even reassuring.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  That's an essential point. At the same time the interpretation isn't completely random or unpredictable; we're all humans, with the same emotions, the same physiological expressions of them, and the same internal responses to others' emotions. If you yell at someone anywhere, you can expect a certain range of emotional responses.
  - Throwaway128865 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - Incipient 3y ago
    Anecdotal counterpoint about "yelling". I was having a conversation with my mother at a Cafe. After 15mins the lady next to us, very genuinely and nicely, asked if we were ok because we were yelling at each other. We're Italian. That was our normal conversation! Someone's definition of aggressive discourse is definitely not everyone's.
    - 3y ago

by saghm 3y ago

Atotalnoob 3y ago

A maintainer shouldn't be directly sending a C&D, they'd likely have their lawyers do it. GNU will probably back pedal

Atotalnoob 3y ago
Actually, it is likely the libreboot person is in the wrong, she has been involved in a lot of drama
ysavir 3y ago
But this isn't really a C&D letter. It's just a request to stop using their name. Feels like Rowe is assigning it the C&D label, probably since it makes things sound more dramatic, when it really isn't.

whstl 3y ago

The fact that the person who sent the C&D email allegedly tried to "take over" the Libreboot name (according to TFA) is also not a good look. I found this: https://libreboot.at https://libreboot.at > Who are we? Denis ‘GNUtoo’ Carikli and Adrien ‘neox’ Bourmault. We created this and maintain it. > take a stand for fully free software is to change URLs across the web from <libreboot.org> to <libreboot.at>, and to let people know that no other version of Libreboot is reliably free software

evasb 3y ago
[flagged]
- whstl 3y ago
  I have no idea who those people are and their pasts, and have no horse in this race, but according to the https://libreboot.at https://libreboot.at website by Adrien Bourmault, Leah was the founder of the project. According to this [1], the alleged takeover you mention not only didn't involve Adrien or Denis Carikli, it also happened in 2021, two years before the creation of https://libreboot.at https://libreboot.at, which seems to be from 2023, and GNU Boot, that succeeded libreboot.at [2] [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20210331005023/https://libreboot.org/news/resignations.html https://web.archive.org/web/20210331005023/https://libreboot... or https://www.andrewrobbins.info/libreboot.html https://www.andrewrobbins.info/libreboot.html if you want a third-party [2] https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/libreboot-devel/2023-03/threads.html https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/libreboot-devel/2023-0... Either way, it seems that if there was any problem around the usage of the GNU Boot name, it was solved by adding disclaimers galore: http://notgnuboot.vimuser.org/ http://notgnuboot.vimuser.org/ To me the disclaimers above show enough good faith. Meanwhile https://libreboot.at https://libreboot.at continues up. I don't think we should be that harsh and accusatory to someone after they actually comply with the request of changing a page name and adding disclaimers.
  - Propelloni 3y ago
    It appears to be a bonfire of vanities on all sides. One side goes "I use the trust you invested in me to block you from project resources, because my other project is soo much better but has less name-recognition." The other side goes "We are more pure, more righteous, and more petty at the same time! Let's show the other side by registering a confusing domain name and release a similiar but still different software with a long blurb why the other side is bad and must be destroyed! Oh yeah, and let's write scathing e-mails so nobody misses that we are petty." This seems so weird to me. Why invest the energy? In the olden days we'd just fork and get to work.

neilv 3y ago

I have to remind myself not to read too much into such things, for three reasons that we all know, but which may bear repeating to ourselves: 1. Open source is global, and not everyone is a native speaker of English. 2. Among English speakers, not everyone has the same cultural conventions and nuances. Even within US cities, you can drive 15 minutes, and find very different conventions. And culture in Boston isn't the same as in the Bay Area, isn't the same as in Bolivia. 3. Even within the same culture, not everyone picks up on signals in language to the same degree (whether perceiving or sending). And some people who think they're picking up on signals are conflating with biases more than some others do. I say I have to remind myself, because this still hits me. For example, when I'm searching certain bug databases, trying to solve an annoying problem, and some prolific volunteer commenting on a bug report there speaks in a manner that comes off as brusque or dismissive. Where they're from (across the Atlantic from me), maybe it's interpreted as professional or capable, and is even reassuring.

wolverine876 3y ago
That's an essential point. At the same time the interpretation isn't completely random or unpredictable; we're all humans, with the same emotions, the same physiological expressions of them, and the same internal responses to others' emotions. If you yell at someone anywhere, you can expect a certain range of emotional responses.
- Throwaway128865 3y ago
  [flagged]
- Incipient 3y ago
  Anecdotal counterpoint about "yelling". I was having a conversation with my mother at a Cafe. After 15mins the lady next to us, very genuinely and nicely, asked if we were ok because we were yelling at each other. We're Italian. That was our normal conversation! Someone's definition of aggressive discourse is definitely not everyone's.
  - 3y ago