3 ms·

There are many other alcohols, 2M2B(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tert-Amyl_alcohol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tert-Amyl_alcohol) for example, which are "alc

There are many other alcohols, 2M2B(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tert-Amyl_alcohol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tert-Amyl_alcohol) for example, which are "alcohol without the hangover" in a sense. I seem to remember a scientist looking into ways to deliver these alcohols(absorbed in cellulose IIRC). You'll note that these chemicals, like alcohol, can also lead to overdoses and since they are much more potent it is even more difficult to ensure one does not overconsume. I suspect that is why they have never been sold commercially for recreational consumption. Of course, you will likely always get some after effects from any mind altering substance as you brain returns to normal, but alcohols which do not metabolize to acetaldehyde are going to result in much less suffering the following day or two. I was somewhat fascinated by other alcohols for quite a while. A microbrewery I used to frequent had some abnormally potent brews despite being around 6%. By potent, I mean that my friends who would normally split a 36 pack of Coors lite between the two of them would be heavily buzzed after a pint or two. A little research led me to discover that fermented beverages are a complex cocktail of chemicals, many of which are psychoactive. Some of those chemicals can actually interfere with a simple alcohol measurement based on specific gravity, so you could be under-stating the ethanol content while also producing a brew with higher levels of mind-altering substances. Here is one such substance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophol When yeast are nutritionally stressed, they will often excrete amino acids and other chemicals with alcoholic functional groups attached. By tailoring the nutritional profile of the wort, you can select for higher or lower levels of these mind altering substances. I suspect it has something to do with how some beverages, notably cider(very poor nutrition for yeast) can give me a hangover before I even manage to fall asleep. In any case, it's fascinating that you can setup a brewery and crank out mind altering chemicals and be largely unregulated beyond the amounts of ethanol(and maybe methanol) in your products.

ramraj07 3y ago
I hope you can see that your friends are alcoholics. Drinking 18 of any alcoholic drink shouldn't be considered normal as much as the surroundings might indicate otherwise.
- serf 3y ago
  it's not normal in the base-line average manner of speech, but it's common. 17 percent of American men have binge-drank in their past year.[0] another point : a single anecdote about someone binge drinking is by no means the single qualified indicator for alcoholism. alcoholism is a specific set of mental and physical traits which all orbit the most common traits of uncontrollability and preoccupation/addiction. a single binge drinking episode isn't smart or healthy; and it may indicate something as part of a broader trend, but it's not a good indicator of whether or not someone is an alcoholic. [0]: https://magazine.medlineplus.gov/article/how-much-is-too-much-5-things-you-need-to-know-about-binge-drinking https://magazine.medlineplus.gov/article/how-much-is-too-muc...
  - listenallyall 3y ago
    Dude, that link defines binge drinking as approximately 5 drinks... the guy's buddies were drinking 18 each. Many of your 17% might "binge drink" once or twice a year... his buddies "normally" split 36. I'm not about to label anyone or anything, but your reference here certainly doesn't disprove ramraj07's argument, nor does it support your claim that 18 beers a night is "common."
- photonbeam 3y ago
  I highly doubt anyone is misleading themselves
- thesaintlives 3y ago
  I think you mean masochists not alcoholics. Coors lite is the most disgusting beer known to man!
- 01100011 3y ago
  Yeah that's not a secret. I'm not sure why you thought that was relevant here but I'm not going to deny it.
- credit_guy 3y ago
  I did some math, because 18 is a big number, and I had to wrap my head around it. So, Coors Light has an ABV of 4.2%. When people talk about "drinks", one beer is 12 fl oz at 5% [1]. A can of Coors Light has 12 fl oz, but at 4.2%, so 18 such cans correspond to only 15 "drinks". Also, equal to 3 full bottles (750 ml each) of Prosecco at 12% ABV. [1] https://www.abc.ca.gov/education/licensee-education/alcohol-facts/ https://www.abc.ca.gov/education/licensee-education/alcohol-...
tsol 3y ago
I've always been fascinated by these trace alcohols. They are very rarely talked about. Some people will say 'alcohol is alcohol' but that's actually incorrect. Alcoholic drinks are bioactive concoctions made of organic materials with multiple active ingredients-- the hops in beer for example has a slight effect on cannabinoid receptors which is why beer tend to makes one sleepy. Like you said there are a lot of trace alcohols as well. People report having different effects from different alcohols-- vodka can be numbing while wine feels more relaxed, etc. By categorizing an inventory of these trace alcohols and their effects, one could hypothetically create customized alcohols with varying effects and levels of metabolic load. These trace alcohols are also called fusel alcohols. A lot of these are very weird chemicals with varying effects, though, not all positive. Propan-1-ol is a fusel alcohol that is thought to be 2-4 times stronger that alcohol and similar in effects, but can lead to high anion gap metabolic acidosis as a lethal side effect. So there are likely safe maximum levels of each fusel alcohol that can actually be added. Fusel alcohols are something brewers take great care to avoid, after all, as they can cause many negative effects. There's something interesting there and I'm surprised no one has pursued this before(AFAIK)
fragmede 3y ago
Outside of alcohol and that family, Vice.com tells me GHB and ketamine are similarly mind altering without the alcohol hangover. https://www.vice.com/en/article/xw879j/ghb-explainer-club-drug-harm-reduction https://www.vice.com/en/article/xw879j/ghb-explainer-club-dr... https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg5ja7/sick-of-drinking-more-people-are-replacing-booze-with-ketamine https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg5ja7/sick-of-drinking-more...
getpost 3y ago
This comment gives me an excuse to post (again) about one of my favorite books, Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers: The Secrets of Ancient Fermentation by Stephen Harrod Buhner (1998). Chapter 7 is about Psychotropic and Highly Inebriating Beers, including myrica gale, wild rosemary, yarrow, wormwood, clary sage, broom, hanbane, darnel, saffron, and wild lettuce. https://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Herbal-Healing-Beers-Fermentation/dp/0937381667/ https://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Herbal-Healing-Beers-Fermentat...

ramraj07 3y ago

I hope you can see that your friends are alcoholics. Drinking 18 of any alcoholic drink shouldn't be considered normal as much as the surroundings might indicate otherwise.

serf 3y ago
it's not normal in the base-line average manner of speech, but it's common. 17 percent of American men have binge-drank in their past year.[0] another point : a single anecdote about someone binge drinking is by no means the single qualified indicator for alcoholism. alcoholism is a specific set of mental and physical traits which all orbit the most common traits of uncontrollability and preoccupation/addiction. a single binge drinking episode isn't smart or healthy; and it may indicate something as part of a broader trend, but it's not a good indicator of whether or not someone is an alcoholic. [0]: https://magazine.medlineplus.gov/article/how-much-is-too-much-5-things-you-need-to-know-about-binge-drinking https://magazine.medlineplus.gov/article/how-much-is-too-muc...
- listenallyall 3y ago
  Dude, that link defines binge drinking as approximately 5 drinks... the guy's buddies were drinking 18 each. Many of your 17% might "binge drink" once or twice a year... his buddies "normally" split 36. I'm not about to label anyone or anything, but your reference here certainly doesn't disprove ramraj07's argument, nor does it support your claim that 18 beers a night is "common."
photonbeam 3y ago
I highly doubt anyone is misleading themselves
thesaintlives 3y ago
I think you mean masochists not alcoholics. Coors lite is the most disgusting beer known to man!
01100011 3y ago
Yeah that's not a secret. I'm not sure why you thought that was relevant here but I'm not going to deny it.
credit_guy 3y ago
I did some math, because 18 is a big number, and I had to wrap my head around it. So, Coors Light has an ABV of 4.2%. When people talk about "drinks", one beer is 12 fl oz at 5% [1]. A can of Coors Light has 12 fl oz, but at 4.2%, so 18 such cans correspond to only 15 "drinks". Also, equal to 3 full bottles (750 ml each) of Prosecco at 12% ABV. [1] https://www.abc.ca.gov/education/licensee-education/alcohol-facts/ https://www.abc.ca.gov/education/licensee-education/alcohol-...

tsol 3y ago

I've always been fascinated by these trace alcohols. They are very rarely talked about. Some people will say 'alcohol is alcohol' but that's actually incorrect. Alcoholic drinks are bioactive concoctions made of organic materials with multiple active ingredients-- the hops in beer for example has a slight effect on cannabinoid receptors which is why beer tend to makes one sleepy. Like you said there are a lot of trace alcohols as well. People report having different effects from different alcohols-- vodka can be numbing while wine feels more relaxed, etc. By categorizing an inventory of these trace alcohols and their effects, one could hypothetically create customized alcohols with varying effects and levels of metabolic load. These trace alcohols are also called fusel alcohols. A lot of these are very weird chemicals with varying effects, though, not all positive. Propan-1-ol is a fusel alcohol that is thought to be 2-4 times stronger that alcohol and similar in effects, but can lead to high anion gap metabolic acidosis as a lethal side effect. So there are likely safe maximum levels of each fusel alcohol that can actually be added. Fusel alcohols are something brewers take great care to avoid, after all, as they can cause many negative effects. There's something interesting there and I'm surprised no one has pursued this before(AFAIK)

fragmede 3y ago

Outside of alcohol and that family, Vice.com tells me GHB and ketamine are similarly mind altering without the alcohol hangover. https://www.vice.com/en/article/xw879j/ghb-explainer-club-drug-harm-reduction https://www.vice.com/en/article/xw879j/ghb-explainer-club-dr... https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg5ja7/sick-of-drinking-more-people-are-replacing-booze-with-ketamine https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg5ja7/sick-of-drinking-more...

getpost 3y ago

This comment gives me an excuse to post (again) about one of my favorite books, Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers: The Secrets of Ancient Fermentation by Stephen Harrod Buhner (1998). Chapter 7 is about Psychotropic and Highly Inebriating Beers, including myrica gale, wild rosemary, yarrow, wormwood, clary sage, broom, hanbane, darnel, saffron, and wild lettuce. https://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Herbal-Healing-Beers-Fermentation/dp/0937381667/ https://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Herbal-Healing-Beers-Fermentat...