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Yes. And the interesting thing is, all of that violence is directly related to overly harsh laws relating to narcotics. The problem comes down to economics: T

by phillmv 15y ago

Yes. And the interesting thing is, all of that violence is directly related to overly harsh laws relating to narcotics. The problem comes down to economics: There is an immense demand for narcotics. Since narcotics are illegal, they are risky to trade, which pushes up prices. Through a combination of the preceding two points, trading in narcotics is extremely profitable. Since the different trade groups engaging in the trade of narcotics have no legal means through which they can resolve their differences, they will instead turn to violence. The gang member's real offense is being born in a crappy part of town lacking in institutions and resources, and where engaging in the drug trade is a normative experience and one of the few sources of jobs. That at least The Wire really goes on about. By eliminating mandatory sentencing, you will significantly reduce the amount of years people serve in prisons because the mandatory sentence lengths were established capriciously in an attempt to out grandstand political opponents (see http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/143/sentencing http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/143/s... ). The world isn't quite as black and white. Eliminate the War on Drugs and overnight all of these problems will disappear as the underlying incentives vanish.

goggles99 15y ago
How about that gang members next door neighbor that he grew up with and used to be best friends with until junior high when that next door neighbor who made a choice to stay away from narcotics, went on to city college then on to a university and today is a somebody. Your saying "The gang member's real offense is being born in a crappy part of town lacking in institutions and resources..." does nothing but enable this type of behavior. Why would you not demand that someone no matter what neighborhood they were born in has to accept personal responsibility for their actions and choices. You give them a pass like they have no choice. Well they clearly do. Some of them make the right choice while this fellow you are giving a free pass too clearly did not. Do you think that there would be more prisoners in Africa if all of the rapists and murderers were somehow instantly apprehended tried and convicted? This article making the USA look like it has the most criminals is a bit misleading.
- danssig 15y ago
  You're ignoring the will power it takes to overcome these situations. Yes, people do. They're called "exceptions". Why do you think it's always celebrated when someone breaks out of this cycle? And no one is talking about giving dangerous people a free pass. Prohibition never works. How can something that grows in the ground naturally be illegal? I loved your comment at the end that seems to hint that it's not that the US has too many people locked up but rather that everyone else isn't strict enough!
- icebraining 15y ago
  Yes, it's their personal responsibility. No, it's not about absolving it. It's about recognizing trends that condition people (including those who haven't even been born yet) and finding a pragmatical solution that benefits both you and them. Your argument is that of a designer of a nuclear missile control panel who puts the "disarm" and the "launch" buttons both side by side with the same size and color and without labels and then excuses himself that it's the operator's responsibility to learn which is which. And the really stupid part, is that in this case the designer is in the missile's impact zone.
- vacri 15y ago
  Doing exactly that has led to the US being in exactly the position it's in. Clearly it's not working. Anyway, what's missing from your self-righteous spiel is that not everyone has access to a mentor who can show them the way out of poverty - and the first part of the battle is even knowing it's possible. Overall, it's a far more complex issue than you paint it to be. Do you think that there would be more prisoners in Africa if all of the rapists and murderers were somehow instantly apprehended tried and convicted? This article making the USA look like it has the most criminals is a bit misleading. Africa is a big place, much, much bigger than the US and with far more people and varied cultures. But it doesn't really matter, because you're bottom-feeding. The US should be compared to its contemporaries, rather than the worst possible example that can be found.
- pushingbits 15y ago
  Reminds me of this recent submission: http://www.marco.org/2012/02/25/right-vs-pragmatic http://www.marco.org/2012/02/25/right-vs-pragmatic HN thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3633985 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3633985

by phillmv 15y ago

goggles99 15y ago

How about that gang members next door neighbor that he grew up with and used to be best friends with until junior high when that next door neighbor who made a choice to stay away from narcotics, went on to city college then on to a university and today is a somebody. Your saying "The gang member's real offense is being born in a crappy part of town lacking in institutions and resources..." does nothing but enable this type of behavior. Why would you not demand that someone no matter what neighborhood they were born in has to accept personal responsibility for their actions and choices. You give them a pass like they have no choice. Well they clearly do. Some of them make the right choice while this fellow you are giving a free pass too clearly did not. Do you think that there would be more prisoners in Africa if all of the rapists and murderers were somehow instantly apprehended tried and convicted? This article making the USA look like it has the most criminals is a bit misleading.

danssig 15y ago
You're ignoring the will power it takes to overcome these situations. Yes, people do. They're called "exceptions". Why do you think it's always celebrated when someone breaks out of this cycle? And no one is talking about giving dangerous people a free pass. Prohibition never works. How can something that grows in the ground naturally be illegal? I loved your comment at the end that seems to hint that it's not that the US has too many people locked up but rather that everyone else isn't strict enough!
icebraining 15y ago
Yes, it's their personal responsibility. No, it's not about absolving it. It's about recognizing trends that condition people (including those who haven't even been born yet) and finding a pragmatical solution that benefits both you and them. Your argument is that of a designer of a nuclear missile control panel who puts the "disarm" and the "launch" buttons both side by side with the same size and color and without labels and then excuses himself that it's the operator's responsibility to learn which is which. And the really stupid part, is that in this case the designer is in the missile's impact zone.
vacri 15y ago
Doing exactly that has led to the US being in exactly the position it's in. Clearly it's not working. Anyway, what's missing from your self-righteous spiel is that not everyone has access to a mentor who can show them the way out of poverty - and the first part of the battle is even knowing it's possible. Overall, it's a far more complex issue than you paint it to be. Do you think that there would be more prisoners in Africa if all of the rapists and murderers were somehow instantly apprehended tried and convicted? This article making the USA look like it has the most criminals is a bit misleading. Africa is a big place, much, much bigger than the US and with far more people and varied cultures. But it doesn't really matter, because you're bottom-feeding. The US should be compared to its contemporaries, rather than the worst possible example that can be found.
pushingbits 15y ago
Reminds me of this recent submission: http://www.marco.org/2012/02/25/right-vs-pragmatic http://www.marco.org/2012/02/25/right-vs-pragmatic HN thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3633985 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3633985