4 ms·

I disagree with you. The people that run society are the train drivers, the nurses, the local council staff, the garage handlers, etc. I'm sure some were consi

I disagree with you. The people that run society are the train drivers, the nurses, the local council staff, the garage handlers, etc. I'm sure some were considered "gifted" in school, but by definition, most likely not. It's those people who I want us to invest the most in. On the other hand, so what if a kid can solve a few maths problems faster than some other kid?

zinodaur 3y ago
I get what you are saying - but school is such a wonderful opportunity to expand your mind and find things to care about. If some kid is all juiced up and excited about something, its tragic for the school to stamp that out through neglect and busywork. IDK how we could build an education system that supports kids in excelling while not degenerating in to a caste system
- prmoustache 3y ago
  you are talking like kids are excelling or not. Some are great at maths and shit at other classes and vice-versa.
rowanG077 3y ago
Exactly. However... The gifted people are the ones that discover electricity, That found the transistor, that allow is to build Integrated circuits at the nanometer scale, that found antibiotics that save millions of lives. Each of the people that made such strides are gifted. They saved millions/billions of people. A non-gifted nurse/train driver, garage handler etc simply can't even begin to compete. Not even if they had ten thousand hours per day.
- tchaffee 3y ago
  Now take away all the nurses and every "non-gifted" contributer to society and see how much the gifted achieve. When you're spending half your time building and maintaining shelter, growing food, cooking, defending yourself from enemies, etc, how much time will you have left to innovate? We are social animals and it takes all of us to be as successful as we are.
  - rowanG077 3y ago
    No one is saying they aren't important or not needed. The point here is that there is a very large disproportionate focus on "not leaving children behind" while the gifted children are left to suffer. We just want gifted children to get the get just a little sliver of the same attention as badly performing students.
    - tchaffee 3y ago
      How are you measuring the proportions and then outcomes for society? I'm also not convinced the gifted children are left behind. Many brilliant contributors to society had a less than ideal education. I agree that publicly funded schools should cater to as wide a range of needs as possible. And at a certain point it becomes the parents' responsibility. If your child is highly gifted you may need to invest your own time and money beyond the basic education provided by the state. Another preferable option is to invest far more money in public education. That is difficult to get widespread support for.
      - rowanG077 3y ago
        > How are you measuring the proportions and then outcomes for society? You know damn well these metrics don't exist today. You yourself do not include any measurements in your logic. But still require it of others. I don't think you are participating in this discussion in good faith at all.
        tchaffee 3y ago
        I didn't know those metrics don't exist. There are seemingly endless studies out there. You are of course free to ask me for supporting sources for any of my claims and I have no problem saying when I do and do not have sources and metrics.
        rowanG077 3y ago
        Oke then, where is the source for your claim that the average non-gifted person contributes equal or more more to society then the average gifted person if the gifted person was as supported as the non-gifted person? Or rather the core of the argument: Why is a single dollar better spend on a non-gifted kid rather then a gifted kid in terms of societal outcomes. Non-gifted meaning in this case someone who get's a lot of support through government intervention like for example no child left behind.
spoonjim 3y ago
What does it matter if a train driver is 10% better at math? If a gifted mathematician is 10% better at math they discover a new result.
- tchaffee 3y ago
  Sounds like we really need the train drivers if we want gifted mathematicians to be able to focus on that.
  - 9991 3y ago
    If our mathematicians are 10% better, we’re not going to have train drivers at all.
    - tchaffee 3y ago
      Train drivers will then move on to do more important work. You're always going to need other people if you want to progress at the fastest rate possible. Humans are social animals and all the great things we achieve are as a unit. An independent ant will never be able to compete with a colony.
      - throw9away6 3y ago
        They won’t though because there are only so many spots in higher educated fields. So you have the problem of baristas with phds and train drivers with advanced math degrees
        tchaffee 3y ago
        Humans have never run out of work. By your reasoning trains themselves should have caused mass unemployment. With better tools we just do bigger stuff. This has been true for all of human history.
        IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
        that's a problem of subsidized liberal education, not a problem of lack of education-based jobs
icecream_so_gud 3y ago
The people who run today's society use the creations of yesterday's gifted and motivated, along with their own, important, incremental updates. The people who create tomorrow's society are the gifted and motivated here now.
- tchaffee 3y ago
  We all create tomorrow's society. Every individual is hugely dependent on other humans. And many of the people we are dependent on have quite mundane jobs. Devalue these folks enough and they will no longer do work and society will collapse. History shows us this and the result is the opposite of progress.

zinodaur 3y ago

I get what you are saying - but school is such a wonderful opportunity to expand your mind and find things to care about. If some kid is all juiced up and excited about something, its tragic for the school to stamp that out through neglect and busywork. IDK how we could build an education system that supports kids in excelling while not degenerating in to a caste system

prmoustache 3y ago
you are talking like kids are excelling or not. Some are great at maths and shit at other classes and vice-versa.

rowanG077 3y ago

Exactly. However... The gifted people are the ones that discover electricity, That found the transistor, that allow is to build Integrated circuits at the nanometer scale, that found antibiotics that save millions of lives. Each of the people that made such strides are gifted. They saved millions/billions of people. A non-gifted nurse/train driver, garage handler etc simply can't even begin to compete. Not even if they had ten thousand hours per day.

tchaffee 3y ago
Now take away all the nurses and every "non-gifted" contributer to society and see how much the gifted achieve. When you're spending half your time building and maintaining shelter, growing food, cooking, defending yourself from enemies, etc, how much time will you have left to innovate? We are social animals and it takes all of us to be as successful as we are.
- rowanG077 3y ago
  No one is saying they aren't important or not needed. The point here is that there is a very large disproportionate focus on "not leaving children behind" while the gifted children are left to suffer. We just want gifted children to get the get just a little sliver of the same attention as badly performing students.
  - tchaffee 3y ago
    How are you measuring the proportions and then outcomes for society? I'm also not convinced the gifted children are left behind. Many brilliant contributors to society had a less than ideal education. I agree that publicly funded schools should cater to as wide a range of needs as possible. And at a certain point it becomes the parents' responsibility. If your child is highly gifted you may need to invest your own time and money beyond the basic education provided by the state. Another preferable option is to invest far more money in public education. That is difficult to get widespread support for.
    - rowanG077 3y ago
      > How are you measuring the proportions and then outcomes for society? You know damn well these metrics don't exist today. You yourself do not include any measurements in your logic. But still require it of others. I don't think you are participating in this discussion in good faith at all.
      - tchaffee 3y ago
        I didn't know those metrics don't exist. There are seemingly endless studies out there. You are of course free to ask me for supporting sources for any of my claims and I have no problem saying when I do and do not have sources and metrics.
        rowanG077 3y ago
        Oke then, where is the source for your claim that the average non-gifted person contributes equal or more more to society then the average gifted person if the gifted person was as supported as the non-gifted person? Or rather the core of the argument: Why is a single dollar better spend on a non-gifted kid rather then a gifted kid in terms of societal outcomes. Non-gifted meaning in this case someone who get's a lot of support through government intervention like for example no child left behind.

spoonjim 3y ago

What does it matter if a train driver is 10% better at math? If a gifted mathematician is 10% better at math they discover a new result.

tchaffee 3y ago
Sounds like we really need the train drivers if we want gifted mathematicians to be able to focus on that.
- 9991 3y ago
  If our mathematicians are 10% better, we’re not going to have train drivers at all.
  - tchaffee 3y ago
    Train drivers will then move on to do more important work. You're always going to need other people if you want to progress at the fastest rate possible. Humans are social animals and all the great things we achieve are as a unit. An independent ant will never be able to compete with a colony.
    - throw9away6 3y ago
      They won’t though because there are only so many spots in higher educated fields. So you have the problem of baristas with phds and train drivers with advanced math degrees
      - tchaffee 3y ago
        Humans have never run out of work. By your reasoning trains themselves should have caused mass unemployment. With better tools we just do bigger stuff. This has been true for all of human history.
      - IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
        that's a problem of subsidized liberal education, not a problem of lack of education-based jobs

icecream_so_gud 3y ago

The people who run today's society use the creations of yesterday's gifted and motivated, along with their own, important, incremental updates. The people who create tomorrow's society are the gifted and motivated here now.

tchaffee 3y ago
We all create tomorrow's society. Every individual is hugely dependent on other humans. And many of the people we are dependent on have quite mundane jobs. Devalue these folks enough and they will no longer do work and society will collapse. History shows us this and the result is the opposite of progress.