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I had a conversation recently with someone lamenting that we didn't have roads like LA here in Boston. Saying their ideal road was 3 lanes, plus a bike lane, pl

I had a conversation recently with someone lamenting that we didn't have roads like LA here in Boston. Saying their ideal road was 3 lanes, plus a bike lane, plus a bus lane in each direction. Imagine being a pedestrian trying to cross that! I really don't understand someone who looks at that traffic disaster and wants to build the same thing here at home.

Gibbon1 3y ago
I feel like the more modes of transportation you mix together the worse the cognitive load on people. And it get rapidly worse the higher the density. Inside of a mall where there are only pedestrians is very safe. Freeways are fairly safe. Protected bike lanes are safe. Light rail is safe. Mix all of those on a strode, rail, buses, trucks, cars, bicycles, pedestrians, not safe.
- atchoo 3y ago
  > the worse the cognitive load Or maybe better the cognitive load? There are various studies that show removing white lines and navigation furniture to make junctions more of a puzzle, decreases speeds and increases attention and safety.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  I'd consider Amsterdam, where many kinds of transportation are carefully weaved together https://www.google.com/maps/place/Schiphol+Amsterdam+Airport/@52.3469203,4.8323419,1281m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x47c5e134e0fd162d:0xc7d51583f1cef188!8m2!3d52.3112829!4d4.760114!16zL20vMDczajI?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/place/Schiphol+Amsterdam+Airport... In that area you will find highways, surface streets, bike paths, pedestrian walkways, trams, commuter trains and other kinds of transportation in a way that comes across as elegant, at least to me.
  - kaibee 3y ago
    I think they still keep them as fairly separate networks, even if they highly overlayed and so have many intersections.
- DANmode 3y ago
  > strode Stroad.
- axpy 3y ago
  This seems pretty counter intuitive but this is often the other way around. The safest streets in Europe are where cars, bikes and pedestrian mix together. It force focus on the driving task instead of doing something else. If you are interested, Freakonomics have an episode: "Why the U.S. so good at killing pedestrian". It's an interesting discussion with no simple answer.
  - underdeserver 3y ago
    As an equal-parts driver, biker, e-scooter rider and pedestrian, this is horrible. Yes, you have to focus on the driving, or walking, or scooting, but you're in constant stress because you can accidentally hit someone coming from any direction. Or they can hit you. It's far better to have separate spaces, and cross only when you really have to.
    - chmod775 3y ago
      Maybe you should be stressed? The point might be that environments where you're not stressed because they lull you into a false sense of security tend to kill more pedestrians. You're moving tons of metal at high speeds. Don't get too comfortable doing that.
      - hulitu 3y ago
        Yet some cyclists have no issue going with high speed through children on those streets.
        chmod775 3y ago
        What is the point here? We shouldn't build roads that are proven to be safer... because some cyclists are idiots?
        tremon 3y ago
        I have also seen cars go 60+ km/h through traffic-calmed cul-de-sacs where children were playing on the street. Are you saying that only cyclists emulate Carmageddon in real life?
brailsafe 3y ago
I think this is exactly what Seattle is building at it's already awful waterfront
- hombre_fatal 3y ago
  Austin too. https://twitter.com/kelseyhuse30/status/1684337210760241152 https://twitter.com/kelseyhuse30/status/1684337210760241152
kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
They're a car-centric person who wants the "nuisance" of bikes and busses out of their way while still pretending to have progressive values. People who only drive from garage to shopping center and back, never having to experience the dehumanizing impact of 6+ lanes affecting other transport modes.
Slow_Hand 3y ago
I’ve lived in LA for five years now and lived in Boston for seven years prior. They’re both uniquely terrible. LA’s roads are easy to imagine because it’s synonymous with huge interstates, congestion, and long commutes. Boston is terrible because it’s layout makes zero intuitive sense and looks like spaghetti when viewed from the sky. Of course Boston predates the automobile, so I understand why. I do enjoy the prevalence of bike culture in Boston. It’s just the right size to pedal most places and there are fairly good accomodations for cycling, like bike lanes. But hey, at least I don’t live in Philadelphia. By far the worst driving experience each time I visit. :)
- kaashif 3y ago
  > Of course Boston predates the automobile, so I understand why. New York City's grid plan far predates the automobile: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioners%27_Plan_of_1811 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioners%27_Plan_of_181... Grids are sometimes but not always caused by cities being designed for cars.
  - armandhammer 3y ago
    It's the opposite, no? Cities / suburbs that were built after 1950 often don't have a grid system.
crooked-v 3y ago
That's someone who's never actually had to drive in LA traffic. I only had to visit once for the experience of 3 straight hours of gridlock traffic just to get across the city to be seared into my brain.

Gibbon1 3y ago

I feel like the more modes of transportation you mix together the worse the cognitive load on people. And it get rapidly worse the higher the density. Inside of a mall where there are only pedestrians is very safe. Freeways are fairly safe. Protected bike lanes are safe. Light rail is safe. Mix all of those on a strode, rail, buses, trucks, cars, bicycles, pedestrians, not safe.

atchoo 3y ago
> the worse the cognitive load Or maybe better the cognitive load? There are various studies that show removing white lines and navigation furniture to make junctions more of a puzzle, decreases speeds and increases attention and safety.
PaulHoule 3y ago
I'd consider Amsterdam, where many kinds of transportation are carefully weaved together https://www.google.com/maps/place/Schiphol+Amsterdam+Airport/@52.3469203,4.8323419,1281m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x47c5e134e0fd162d:0xc7d51583f1cef188!8m2!3d52.3112829!4d4.760114!16zL20vMDczajI?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/place/Schiphol+Amsterdam+Airport... In that area you will find highways, surface streets, bike paths, pedestrian walkways, trams, commuter trains and other kinds of transportation in a way that comes across as elegant, at least to me.
- kaibee 3y ago
  I think they still keep them as fairly separate networks, even if they highly overlayed and so have many intersections.
DANmode 3y ago
> strode Stroad.
axpy 3y ago
This seems pretty counter intuitive but this is often the other way around. The safest streets in Europe are where cars, bikes and pedestrian mix together. It force focus on the driving task instead of doing something else. If you are interested, Freakonomics have an episode: "Why the U.S. so good at killing pedestrian". It's an interesting discussion with no simple answer.
- underdeserver 3y ago
  As an equal-parts driver, biker, e-scooter rider and pedestrian, this is horrible. Yes, you have to focus on the driving, or walking, or scooting, but you're in constant stress because you can accidentally hit someone coming from any direction. Or they can hit you. It's far better to have separate spaces, and cross only when you really have to.
  - chmod775 3y ago
    Maybe you should be stressed? The point might be that environments where you're not stressed because they lull you into a false sense of security tend to kill more pedestrians. You're moving tons of metal at high speeds. Don't get too comfortable doing that.
    - hulitu 3y ago
      Yet some cyclists have no issue going with high speed through children on those streets.
      - chmod775 3y ago
        What is the point here? We shouldn't build roads that are proven to be safer... because some cyclists are idiots?
      - tremon 3y ago
        I have also seen cars go 60+ km/h through traffic-calmed cul-de-sacs where children were playing on the street. Are you saying that only cyclists emulate Carmageddon in real life?

brailsafe 3y ago

I think this is exactly what Seattle is building at it's already awful waterfront

hombre_fatal 3y ago
Austin too. https://twitter.com/kelseyhuse30/status/1684337210760241152 https://twitter.com/kelseyhuse30/status/1684337210760241152

kevin_thibedeau 3y ago

They're a car-centric person who wants the "nuisance" of bikes and busses out of their way while still pretending to have progressive values. People who only drive from garage to shopping center and back, never having to experience the dehumanizing impact of 6+ lanes affecting other transport modes.

Slow_Hand 3y ago

I’ve lived in LA for five years now and lived in Boston for seven years prior. They’re both uniquely terrible. LA’s roads are easy to imagine because it’s synonymous with huge interstates, congestion, and long commutes. Boston is terrible because it’s layout makes zero intuitive sense and looks like spaghetti when viewed from the sky. Of course Boston predates the automobile, so I understand why. I do enjoy the prevalence of bike culture in Boston. It’s just the right size to pedal most places and there are fairly good accomodations for cycling, like bike lanes. But hey, at least I don’t live in Philadelphia. By far the worst driving experience each time I visit. :)

kaashif 3y ago
> Of course Boston predates the automobile, so I understand why. New York City's grid plan far predates the automobile: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioners%27_Plan_of_1811 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioners%27_Plan_of_181... Grids are sometimes but not always caused by cities being designed for cars.
- armandhammer 3y ago
  It's the opposite, no? Cities / suburbs that were built after 1950 often don't have a grid system.

crooked-v 3y ago

That's someone who's never actually had to drive in LA traffic. I only had to visit once for the experience of 3 straight hours of gridlock traffic just to get across the city to be seared into my brain.