4 ms·

Perhaps someone else can parse this better than me. I can make sense of one of these lines: "Criminals break laws; laws are often injust. The War on Drugs, and

by moldbug 15y ago

Perhaps someone else can parse this better than me. I can make sense of one of these lines: "Criminals break laws; laws are often injust. The War on Drugs, and mandatory sentencing." I think behind this line is lurking the belief that America's prisons are full of Humboldt County potheads, or something like that. The typical American in jail for drug offenses isn't a system administrator who made the mistake of toking up one night. It's a gang member whose real offense is being a worthless thug. The prosecutors and LEOs who busted him are experts in the technical details of putting worthless thugs in jail, to the extent that this remains possible. Nonetheless, all major American cities retain a very substantial population of worthless thugs. If you're unaware of this reality, I strongly recommend this Chicago cop blog: http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/ http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/. Or you could watch "The Wire" - I hear it's available on DVD. Last month, my wife and daughter were leaving a child's birthday party in the outer Mission, SF, when bullets flew down the street past them, followed by a worthless thug who ran past them gun in hand. You can argue that Bayshore Blvd. is a lousy place to put a space that hosts children's birthday parties, and I'd agree. Still, it's my country - why shouldn't I feel safe in it, anywhere, day or night?

rbanffy 15y ago
Being a "worthless thug" is not a crime in itself. Running down a street while firing a gun and endangering bystanders is (or, at the very least, should be).
- danssig 15y ago
  Unless you're a cop.
rdixit 15y ago
"worthless thug" has some pretty racist overtones. I'll make to watch more of The Wire to get real info on the causes of crime in America.
- fractallyte 15y ago
  Huh? Racist?! Do you mean racist by reference to the etymology of the word 'thug' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee)? That's a pretty obscure use of the 'race card'...
  - jbooth 15y ago
    Are you feigning ignorance here or did you actually think the original comment's repeated pejorative of 'worthless thugs' was talking about white people?
    - moldbug 15y ago
      Not in San Francisco, but there are plenty of white "worthless thugs." See under: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav. The American equivalent starts around 80 miles east of here and doesn't let up until Westchester County - I exaggerate, slightly. See under: "Winter's Bone."
      - jbooth 15y ago
        Except people don't casually malign them as "thugs". "Rednecks", maybe. In the context of the original comment, there was definitely a racial component and liberal use of the word "worthless". You can dispute whether that's racist, maybe, but being shocked at the suggestion? It quite clearly has a racial element.
- danssig 15y ago
  I don't know if your being sarcastic or not but "The Wire" is so good it's being used in criminal science classes now.
phillmv 15y ago
Yes. And the interesting thing is, all of that violence is directly related to overly harsh laws relating to narcotics. The problem comes down to economics: There is an immense demand for narcotics. Since narcotics are illegal, they are risky to trade, which pushes up prices. Through a combination of the preceding two points, trading in narcotics is extremely profitable. Since the different trade groups engaging in the trade of narcotics have no legal means through which they can resolve their differences, they will instead turn to violence. The gang member's real offense is being born in a crappy part of town lacking in institutions and resources, and where engaging in the drug trade is a normative experience and one of the few sources of jobs. That at least The Wire really goes on about. By eliminating mandatory sentencing, you will significantly reduce the amount of years people serve in prisons because the mandatory sentence lengths were established capriciously in an attempt to out grandstand political opponents (see http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/143/sentencing http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/143/s... ). The world isn't quite as black and white. Eliminate the War on Drugs and overnight all of these problems will disappear as the underlying incentives vanish.
- goggles99 15y ago
  How about that gang members next door neighbor that he grew up with and used to be best friends with until junior high when that next door neighbor who made a choice to stay away from narcotics, went on to city college then on to a university and today is a somebody. Your saying "The gang member's real offense is being born in a crappy part of town lacking in institutions and resources..." does nothing but enable this type of behavior. Why would you not demand that someone no matter what neighborhood they were born in has to accept personal responsibility for their actions and choices. You give them a pass like they have no choice. Well they clearly do. Some of them make the right choice while this fellow you are giving a free pass too clearly did not. Do you think that there would be more prisoners in Africa if all of the rapists and murderers were somehow instantly apprehended tried and convicted? This article making the USA look like it has the most criminals is a bit misleading.
  - danssig 15y ago
danssig 15y ago
It's funny that you mention "The Wire". Did you miss the episodes where a captain made a section of Baltimore a drug-free-for-all zone and crime dropped to almost nothing? I also like how you judge people you don't know to be "worthless". I'm sorry to hear what happened to your family, that's really awful. Still, I wonder what your reaction would have been if that "worthless thug" had been wearing a police uniform.
- moldbug 15y ago
  Yeah, Hampsterdam, that was a big success. Did we watch the same show? Here's another movie you might enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRsj-RPoFaI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRsj-RPoFaI. Try to make it through all 5 minutes without thinking the phrase "worthless thug." Cops, you'll be surprised to know, generally know how to use their weapons. Still, shit happens. For every innocent American whacked by a cop, there are probably a hundred whacked by a "worthless thug." What kind of defender of the innocent worries more about the former than the latter?
  - danssig 15y ago
    Hampsterdam was a huge success. Until politics got involved and caused the whole thing to be shut down. In fact it worked so well that a Governor lost job because he wasn't willing to shut it down when he found out about it. >For every innocent American whacked by a cop, there are probably a hundred whacked by a "worthless thug." What kind of defender of the innocent worries more about the former than the latter? You do realize that cops have no obligation to protect you right? That was a supreme court ruling. Being between a cop trying to shoot someone is exactly as dangerous as being between a "worthless thug" trying to shoot someone.
jonnathanson 15y ago
If what you took from "The Wire" is that many gang members are "worthless thugs," then you sort of missed the point of the show. "The Wire" is as much a commentary about the social conditions leading to crime (broken education system, blighted cities, etc.) as it is a commentary about criminals and law enforcement. David Simon, the show's creator, has gone on record as stating that the show is really about three things: 1) the pointlessness of the drug war; 2) the social conditions of the underclass in America; 3) society's misguided obsession with simple, reductionist statistics (i.e., judging police effectiveness by "clearance rates," judging teachers by student test scores, etc.) at the expense of more complex and nuanced systems analysis.
anigbrowl 15y ago
Drop me a line via gmail if you get the chance.

by moldbug 15y ago

rbanffy 15y ago

Being a "worthless thug" is not a crime in itself. Running down a street while firing a gun and endangering bystanders is (or, at the very least, should be).

danssig 15y ago
Unless you're a cop.

rdixit 15y ago

"worthless thug" has some pretty racist overtones. I'll make to watch more of The Wire to get real info on the causes of crime in America.

fractallyte 15y ago
Huh? Racist?! Do you mean racist by reference to the etymology of the word 'thug' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee)? That's a pretty obscure use of the 'race card'...
- jbooth 15y ago
  Are you feigning ignorance here or did you actually think the original comment's repeated pejorative of 'worthless thugs' was talking about white people?
  - moldbug 15y ago
    Not in San Francisco, but there are plenty of white "worthless thugs." See under: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav. The American equivalent starts around 80 miles east of here and doesn't let up until Westchester County - I exaggerate, slightly. See under: "Winter's Bone."
    - jbooth 15y ago
      Except people don't casually malign them as "thugs". "Rednecks", maybe. In the context of the original comment, there was definitely a racial component and liberal use of the word "worthless". You can dispute whether that's racist, maybe, but being shocked at the suggestion? It quite clearly has a racial element.
danssig 15y ago
I don't know if your being sarcastic or not but "The Wire" is so good it's being used in criminal science classes now.

phillmv 15y ago

Yes. And the interesting thing is, all of that violence is directly related to overly harsh laws relating to narcotics. The problem comes down to economics: There is an immense demand for narcotics. Since narcotics are illegal, they are risky to trade, which pushes up prices. Through a combination of the preceding two points, trading in narcotics is extremely profitable. Since the different trade groups engaging in the trade of narcotics have no legal means through which they can resolve their differences, they will instead turn to violence. The gang member's real offense is being born in a crappy part of town lacking in institutions and resources, and where engaging in the drug trade is a normative experience and one of the few sources of jobs. That at least The Wire really goes on about. By eliminating mandatory sentencing, you will significantly reduce the amount of years people serve in prisons because the mandatory sentence lengths were established capriciously in an attempt to out grandstand political opponents (see http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/143/sentencing http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/143/s... ). The world isn't quite as black and white. Eliminate the War on Drugs and overnight all of these problems will disappear as the underlying incentives vanish.

goggles99 15y ago
How about that gang members next door neighbor that he grew up with and used to be best friends with until junior high when that next door neighbor who made a choice to stay away from narcotics, went on to city college then on to a university and today is a somebody. Your saying "The gang member's real offense is being born in a crappy part of town lacking in institutions and resources..." does nothing but enable this type of behavior. Why would you not demand that someone no matter what neighborhood they were born in has to accept personal responsibility for their actions and choices. You give them a pass like they have no choice. Well they clearly do. Some of them make the right choice while this fellow you are giving a free pass too clearly did not. Do you think that there would be more prisoners in Africa if all of the rapists and murderers were somehow instantly apprehended tried and convicted? This article making the USA look like it has the most criminals is a bit misleading.
- danssig 15y ago

danssig 15y ago

It's funny that you mention "The Wire". Did you miss the episodes where a captain made a section of Baltimore a drug-free-for-all zone and crime dropped to almost nothing? I also like how you judge people you don't know to be "worthless". I'm sorry to hear what happened to your family, that's really awful. Still, I wonder what your reaction would have been if that "worthless thug" had been wearing a police uniform.

moldbug 15y ago
Yeah, Hampsterdam, that was a big success. Did we watch the same show? Here's another movie you might enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRsj-RPoFaI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRsj-RPoFaI. Try to make it through all 5 minutes without thinking the phrase "worthless thug." Cops, you'll be surprised to know, generally know how to use their weapons. Still, shit happens. For every innocent American whacked by a cop, there are probably a hundred whacked by a "worthless thug." What kind of defender of the innocent worries more about the former than the latter?
- danssig 15y ago
  Hampsterdam was a huge success. Until politics got involved and caused the whole thing to be shut down. In fact it worked so well that a Governor lost job because he wasn't willing to shut it down when he found out about it. >For every innocent American whacked by a cop, there are probably a hundred whacked by a "worthless thug." What kind of defender of the innocent worries more about the former than the latter? You do realize that cops have no obligation to protect you right? That was a supreme court ruling. Being between a cop trying to shoot someone is exactly as dangerous as being between a "worthless thug" trying to shoot someone.

jonnathanson 15y ago

If what you took from "The Wire" is that many gang members are "worthless thugs," then you sort of missed the point of the show. "The Wire" is as much a commentary about the social conditions leading to crime (broken education system, blighted cities, etc.) as it is a commentary about criminals and law enforcement. David Simon, the show's creator, has gone on record as stating that the show is really about three things: 1) the pointlessness of the drug war; 2) the social conditions of the underclass in America; 3) society's misguided obsession with simple, reductionist statistics (i.e., judging police effectiveness by "clearance rates," judging teachers by student test scores, etc.) at the expense of more complex and nuanced systems analysis.

anigbrowl 15y ago

Drop me a line via gmail if you get the chance.