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This is why you are being downvoted: You ask two unrelated question to which you provide no proof. >But what if our system is actually erring in the other dir

by phillmv 15y ago

This is why you are being downvoted: You ask two unrelated question to which you provide no proof. >But what if our system is actually erring in the other direction? Okay. How? Every other nation on earth has lower incarceration rates, and a fair number of them are safer than the US. So given that that are still criminals on the outside, the answer is that you need to become more efficient at apprehending the right people - not increase incarceration rates. >I think the most basic question is: why are there so many criminals? What about the present-day American system of government is so amazingly criminogenic? Criminals break laws; laws are often injust. The War on Drugs, and mandatory sentencing. >If what we need isn't more social justice, what is it? This is entirely unsubstantiated by anything you wrote preceding this sentence. Frankly, it's kind of confused.

moldbug 15y ago
Perhaps someone else can parse this better than me. I can make sense of one of these lines: "Criminals break laws; laws are often injust. The War on Drugs, and mandatory sentencing." I think behind this line is lurking the belief that America's prisons are full of Humboldt County potheads, or something like that. The typical American in jail for drug offenses isn't a system administrator who made the mistake of toking up one night. It's a gang member whose real offense is being a worthless thug. The prosecutors and LEOs who busted him are experts in the technical details of putting worthless thugs in jail, to the extent that this remains possible. Nonetheless, all major American cities retain a very substantial population of worthless thugs. If you're unaware of this reality, I strongly recommend this Chicago cop blog: http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/ http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/. Or you could watch "The Wire" - I hear it's available on DVD. Last month, my wife and daughter were leaving a child's birthday party in the outer Mission, SF, when bullets flew down the street past them, followed by a worthless thug who ran past them gun in hand. You can argue that Bayshore Blvd. is a lousy place to put a space that hosts children's birthday parties, and I'd agree. Still, it's my country - why shouldn't I feel safe in it, anywhere, day or night?
- rbanffy 15y ago
  Being a "worthless thug" is not a crime in itself. Running down a street while firing a gun and endangering bystanders is (or, at the very least, should be).
  - danssig 15y ago
    Unless you're a cop.
- rdixit 15y ago
  "worthless thug" has some pretty racist overtones. I'll make to watch more of The Wire to get real info on the causes of crime in America.
  - fractallyte 15y ago
    Huh? Racist?! Do you mean racist by reference to the etymology of the word 'thug' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee)? That's a pretty obscure use of the 'race card'...
    - jbooth 15y ago
      Are you feigning ignorance here or did you actually think the original comment's repeated pejorative of 'worthless thugs' was talking about white people?
      - moldbug 15y ago
        Not in San Francisco, but there are plenty of white "worthless thugs." See under: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav. The American equivalent starts around 80 miles east of here and doesn't let up until Westchester County - I exaggerate, slightly. See under: "Winter's Bone."
        jbooth 15y ago
bokonist 15y ago
"laws are often injust ... the war on drugs" Look up the statistics. Even if every person in the U.S. incarcerated for drug possession was released tomorrow, the U.S. would still have the highest incareration rate in the world. If every drug trafficker was released, the U.S. would still have an incarceration rate triple that of every Western European country. If every non-violent offender was released, the inceration rate would stll be double that of every western European country. Also, note that many drug offenders have a violent history, but the police were only able to make the drug charges stick. Also note that in many cases the drug offenders were selling on street corners, playgrounds, and such, and residents were begging the police to move in and arrest the gang members. America first and foremost has a crime problem. And it has a crime problem due to terrible law enforcement. The incarceration rate is actually at a point that is analogous to the famous Laffer curve in tax policy. If you have really good law enforcement, and predictably catch and punish felons, you have very low incarceration rates because so few people commit crime (see for instance Japan and Singapore). If your country catches nobody, obviously its incarceration rate is 0%. But if law enforcement is mostly lax, but is inconsistently and randomly harsh, then you get high crime and a very high total incarcerated population.
- phillmv 15y ago
  >Also, note that many drug offenders have a violent history, but the police were only able to make the drug charges stick. Also note that in many cases the drug offenders were selling on street corners, playgrounds, and such, and residents were begging the police to move in and arrest the gang members. "In many cases" is disingenuously broad. That's not the case at all. Here is a great primer on the topic - http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/143/sentencing http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/143/s... When we talk about the War on Drugs driving incarceration rates, we do not speak solely of drug possession. It's economics. There is immense demand for narcotics because people love to get high. Since narcotics are illegal, engaging in their trade becomes a risky proposition, which in turn drives up prices. Since narcotics are such a lucrative endeavour, there is a lot of competition. Since competing groups lack the capacity to settle their differences through the judicial system, violence is often the answer they resort to. By making the trade legal you will remove all of these problems overnight. >America first and foremost has a crime problem. And it has a crime problem due to terrible law enforcement. Convicting and incarcerating people has little to do with law enforcement and more to do with the laws they were accused of breaking and the judicial system at large. Police officers round people up; they have no responsibility in determining whether they get locked up. > But if law enforcement is mostly lax, but is inconsistently and randomly harsh, then you get high crime and a very high total incarcerated population. So, you agree with me then: large amounts of people who are correctly locked up shouldn't be locked up.

by phillmv 15y ago

moldbug 15y ago

Perhaps someone else can parse this better than me. I can make sense of one of these lines: "Criminals break laws; laws are often injust. The War on Drugs, and mandatory sentencing." I think behind this line is lurking the belief that America's prisons are full of Humboldt County potheads, or something like that. The typical American in jail for drug offenses isn't a system administrator who made the mistake of toking up one night. It's a gang member whose real offense is being a worthless thug. The prosecutors and LEOs who busted him are experts in the technical details of putting worthless thugs in jail, to the extent that this remains possible. Nonetheless, all major American cities retain a very substantial population of worthless thugs. If you're unaware of this reality, I strongly recommend this Chicago cop blog: http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/ http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/. Or you could watch "The Wire" - I hear it's available on DVD. Last month, my wife and daughter were leaving a child's birthday party in the outer Mission, SF, when bullets flew down the street past them, followed by a worthless thug who ran past them gun in hand. You can argue that Bayshore Blvd. is a lousy place to put a space that hosts children's birthday parties, and I'd agree. Still, it's my country - why shouldn't I feel safe in it, anywhere, day or night?

rbanffy 15y ago
Being a "worthless thug" is not a crime in itself. Running down a street while firing a gun and endangering bystanders is (or, at the very least, should be).
- danssig 15y ago
  Unless you're a cop.
rdixit 15y ago
"worthless thug" has some pretty racist overtones. I'll make to watch more of The Wire to get real info on the causes of crime in America.
- fractallyte 15y ago
  Huh? Racist?! Do you mean racist by reference to the etymology of the word 'thug' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee)? That's a pretty obscure use of the 'race card'...
  - jbooth 15y ago
    Are you feigning ignorance here or did you actually think the original comment's repeated pejorative of 'worthless thugs' was talking about white people?
    - moldbug 15y ago
      Not in San Francisco, but there are plenty of white "worthless thugs." See under: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav. The American equivalent starts around 80 miles east of here and doesn't let up until Westchester County - I exaggerate, slightly. See under: "Winter's Bone."
      - jbooth 15y ago

bokonist 15y ago

"laws are often injust ... the war on drugs" Look up the statistics. Even if every person in the U.S. incarcerated for drug possession was released tomorrow, the U.S. would still have the highest incareration rate in the world. If every drug trafficker was released, the U.S. would still have an incarceration rate triple that of every Western European country. If every non-violent offender was released, the inceration rate would stll be double that of every western European country. Also, note that many drug offenders have a violent history, but the police were only able to make the drug charges stick. Also note that in many cases the drug offenders were selling on street corners, playgrounds, and such, and residents were begging the police to move in and arrest the gang members. America first and foremost has a crime problem. And it has a crime problem due to terrible law enforcement. The incarceration rate is actually at a point that is analogous to the famous Laffer curve in tax policy. If you have really good law enforcement, and predictably catch and punish felons, you have very low incarceration rates because so few people commit crime (see for instance Japan and Singapore). If your country catches nobody, obviously its incarceration rate is 0%. But if law enforcement is mostly lax, but is inconsistently and randomly harsh, then you get high crime and a very high total incarcerated population.

phillmv 15y ago
>Also, note that many drug offenders have a violent history, but the police were only able to make the drug charges stick. Also note that in many cases the drug offenders were selling on street corners, playgrounds, and such, and residents were begging the police to move in and arrest the gang members. "In many cases" is disingenuously broad. That's not the case at all. Here is a great primer on the topic - http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/143/sentencing http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/143/s... When we talk about the War on Drugs driving incarceration rates, we do not speak solely of drug possession. It's economics. There is immense demand for narcotics because people love to get high. Since narcotics are illegal, engaging in their trade becomes a risky proposition, which in turn drives up prices. Since narcotics are such a lucrative endeavour, there is a lot of competition. Since competing groups lack the capacity to settle their differences through the judicial system, violence is often the answer they resort to. By making the trade legal you will remove all of these problems overnight. >America first and foremost has a crime problem. And it has a crime problem due to terrible law enforcement. Convicting and incarcerating people has little to do with law enforcement and more to do with the laws they were accused of breaking and the judicial system at large. Police officers round people up; they have no responsibility in determining whether they get locked up. > But if law enforcement is mostly lax, but is inconsistently and randomly harsh, then you get high crime and a very high total incarcerated population. So, you agree with me then: large amounts of people who are correctly locked up shouldn't be locked up.