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I don't think you've been to NYC in the last 5 years or so if you think that bikers aren't routinely failing to yield to pedestrians. The worst and most danger

I don't think you've been to NYC in the last 5 years or so if you think that bikers aren't routinely failing to yield to pedestrians. The worst and most dangerous culprits are the people whizzing around on e-bikes with a complete disregard for pedestrian safety or traffic laws. The drivers in NYC are comparatively safe. They drive relatively slowly (compared to other parts of the country), pay attention to pedestrians, and obey traffic lights and signs.

whimsicalism 3y ago
Even per capita of bike riding vs. car riding, the deaths from drivers are disproportionate. > bikers aren't routinely failing to yield to pedestrians I didn't say that, I think it is true. That said, I also think pedestrians sometimes have an expectation that a biker would yield in a place where they wouldn't even try with a car (ie. crossing the road between two vehicles into the bike lane).
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  > Failing to yield to pedestrians where? This is what you said, and what I am responding to. Also, I would suggest that deaths from drivers are probably only higher because the probability of a collision being fatal is a lot higher when one party in the collision is 2 tons, and that the fatality rate is not a good proxy for the rate of total accidents (even the rate of total accidents where someone ends up in a hospital). I have not seen a credible measurement for that, but I would expect from what I have seen in my 6 years living in Manhattan that the accident rate with bikes is a lot higher than it is with cars, and that so is the rate of injuries. As a pedestrian, my chance of getting killed in a traffic accident are so astronomically low that I actually care a lot more about my probability of being injured than my probability of being killed.
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    > my chance of getting killed in a traffic accident are so astronomically low Are they really? You have a higher chance of being killed by a car while you are inside a building, than you are of being killed by a cyclist.
    - pclmulqdq 3y ago
      Yes, they are. A city of 8 million had ~200 fatalities last year. Also, I'm not concerned about getting killed by a cyclist. I'm concerned about getting hit by one. Those are not the same thing.
      - esoterica 3y ago
        NYC averages less than 1 pedestrian killed by bikes every year. https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/nycdot-pedestrian-fatalities-by-bike-motor-vehicle.pdf https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/nycdot-pedestrian... There are ~300 pedestrian injuries caused by bikes every year vs 10,000 caused by cars. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/27/nyregion/elderly-pedestrians-bicycles-accidents.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/27/nyregion/elderly-pedestri... Your feelings about bikes are in direct contradiction with the data.
        pclmulqdq 3y ago
        One more time: The number of people killed by each does not matter to me. What matters is the chance of getting hit at all. I still have not seen a credible study about causes of accidents involving an injured pedestrian.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        esoterica 3y ago
        Did you read the comment you replied to? I will say it again: there were 300 pedestrian injuries caused by bikes and 10,000 caused by cars in NYC in 2017. Click on the link.
        pclmulqdq 3y ago
        I did read it. To spell it out for you: Looking at the official records (which the NYT did - I did read the thing you cited) will severely underreport bike-pedestrian collisions and the resulting injuries because almost all of them are not handled through official accident reporting channels, so they don't get counted. Like I said again, I have yet to see a credible study counting non-fatal injuries from bikes in the city. Someone could do this, for example, by randomly sampling ER patients to see how many were involved in bicycle-pedestrian crashes, but nobody has. Also, that NYT article is almost a pro-bike op-ed in its tone, and I would suggest finding sources that at least sound a little more neutral on your issues of choice.
- jghn 3y ago
  I expect people to yield when I have the right of way. Regardless of their mode of transport.

whimsicalism 3y ago

Even per capita of bike riding vs. car riding, the deaths from drivers are disproportionate. > bikers aren't routinely failing to yield to pedestrians I didn't say that, I think it is true. That said, I also think pedestrians sometimes have an expectation that a biker would yield in a place where they wouldn't even try with a car (ie. crossing the road between two vehicles into the bike lane).

pclmulqdq 3y ago
> Failing to yield to pedestrians where? This is what you said, and what I am responding to. Also, I would suggest that deaths from drivers are probably only higher because the probability of a collision being fatal is a lot higher when one party in the collision is 2 tons, and that the fatality rate is not a good proxy for the rate of total accidents (even the rate of total accidents where someone ends up in a hospital). I have not seen a credible measurement for that, but I would expect from what I have seen in my 6 years living in Manhattan that the accident rate with bikes is a lot higher than it is with cars, and that so is the rate of injuries. As a pedestrian, my chance of getting killed in a traffic accident are so astronomically low that I actually care a lot more about my probability of being injured than my probability of being killed.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > my chance of getting killed in a traffic accident are so astronomically low Are they really? You have a higher chance of being killed by a car while you are inside a building, than you are of being killed by a cyclist.
  - pclmulqdq 3y ago
    Yes, they are. A city of 8 million had ~200 fatalities last year. Also, I'm not concerned about getting killed by a cyclist. I'm concerned about getting hit by one. Those are not the same thing.
    - esoterica 3y ago
      NYC averages less than 1 pedestrian killed by bikes every year. https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/nycdot-pedestrian-fatalities-by-bike-motor-vehicle.pdf https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/nycdot-pedestrian... There are ~300 pedestrian injuries caused by bikes every year vs 10,000 caused by cars. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/27/nyregion/elderly-pedestrians-bicycles-accidents.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/27/nyregion/elderly-pedestri... Your feelings about bikes are in direct contradiction with the data.
      - pclmulqdq 3y ago
        One more time: The number of people killed by each does not matter to me. What matters is the chance of getting hit at all. I still have not seen a credible study about causes of accidents involving an injured pedestrian.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        esoterica 3y ago
        Did you read the comment you replied to? I will say it again: there were 300 pedestrian injuries caused by bikes and 10,000 caused by cars in NYC in 2017. Click on the link.
        pclmulqdq 3y ago
        I did read it. To spell it out for you: Looking at the official records (which the NYT did - I did read the thing you cited) will severely underreport bike-pedestrian collisions and the resulting injuries because almost all of them are not handled through official accident reporting channels, so they don't get counted. Like I said again, I have yet to see a credible study counting non-fatal injuries from bikes in the city. Someone could do this, for example, by randomly sampling ER patients to see how many were involved in bicycle-pedestrian crashes, but nobody has. Also, that NYT article is almost a pro-bike op-ed in its tone, and I would suggest finding sources that at least sound a little more neutral on your issues of choice.
jghn 3y ago
I expect people to yield when I have the right of way. Regardless of their mode of transport.