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> Climate change is caused by pollution and overconsumption. We're perfectly capable to change that ... we just don't want to. Yes, we can turn rich countries

> Climate change is caused by pollution and overconsumption. We're perfectly capable to change that ... we just don't want to. Yes, we can turn rich countries into poor countries by taking away transport, energy, and protein from the working class, and there's growing support for that approach. But that approach also destroys most of the hope for technological solutions. And even if the richest countries did sacrifice everything, would it be enough, if many other countries continued pursuing growth of economies, consumption, and population?

myshpa 3y ago
> we can turn rich countries into poor countries by taking away transport City and economy planning, work from home, basic income, degrowth ... > energy Renewable energy, insulation and heat pumps, not air-conditioners. > protein from the working class That's propaganda, and now you're getting somewhere. We already get 63% of our protein from plants. If we were to extend that to 100%, we could store our entire 1.5C carbon budget through afforesting and rewilding pastures, which would also help restore biodiversity. Climate change, resource depletion, deforestation, loss of biodiversity, pollution, overpopulation, soil erosion, and overfishing are all but symptoms of ecological overshoot. Switching off animal protein would help solve climate change (15-25% impact, co2/methane/n20), deforestation, pollution, soil erosion and overfishing. So it's one of the most impactful things we should do ... helping to solve 5 things out of 7. > But that approach also destroys most of the hope for technological solutions. We don't have any such solutions, that's something that sways the attention from things we already have at our disposal (just wait for this one thing that may or may not come ...). > And even if the richest countries did sacrifice everything Rich countries did/are doing most of the damage, the poorest ones are the ones paying most for it. If everyone would act as we do, we would need several more earths. > if many other countries continued pursuing growth of economies, consumption, and population Should they stay underdeveloped, or die out just so we could still be living like pigs in clover ?
- BasedAnon 3y ago
  >That's propaganda, and now you're getting somewhere. We already get 63% of our protein from plants. If we were to extend that to 100%, we could store our entire 1.5C carbon budget through afforesting and rewilding pastures, which would also help restore biodiversity. Protein is not created equally. It is not possible to maintain a healthy diet using sustainable low-energy sources of plant protein in place of meat. Meat is not an optional part of our diet. There have been plenty of studies detailing the dietary impact of vegan diets.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-chea... Sustainable eating is cheaper and healthier - Oxford study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35719615/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35719615/ Plant-based diets were protective against cancers of the digestive system, with no significant differences between different types of cancer, a meta-analysis based on 3,059,009 subjects https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/04/meat-tax-would-boost-health-and-cut-heathcare-spending-research/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/04/meat-tax-would-boost-health... Meat tax would boost health and cut healthcare spending: research https://www.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/over-17000-doctors-call-on-white-house-to-shape-nutrition-policy-on-plant-based-diets.html https://www.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/over-17000-doctors... Over 17,000 doctors call on White House to shape nutrition policy on plant-based diets "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes." - American Dietetic Association "A vegetarian or vegan diet can be suitable for everyone, regardless of their age." - NHS UK "[I]t is possible to follow a well-planned, plant-based, vegan friendly diet that supports healthy living in people of all ages, and during pregnancy and breastfeeding." - British Dietetic Association. "For adults, protein from two or more plant groups daily is like to be adequate. " - World Health Organisation > There have been plenty of studies detailing the dietary impact of vegan diets Meat & dairy industry is spending massive amounts of money of keeping the status quo as long as possible, same as with cigarettes or fossil fuels. A lot of those studies are paid for, be aware. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/03/beef-industry-public-relations-messaging-machine https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/03/beef-ind... Inside big beef’s climate messaging machine: confuse, defend and downplay https://newrepublic.com/article/171781/meat-culture-war-crickets https://newrepublic.com/article/171781/meat-culture-war-cric... Why Right-Wingers Are So Afraid of Men Eating Vegetables https://www.salon.com/2022/11/11/the-meat-industry-is-borrowing-tactics-from-big-oil-to-obfuscate-the-truth-about-climate-change/ https://www.salon.com/2022/11/11/the-meat-industry-is-borrow... The meat industry is borrowing tactics from Big Oil to obfuscate the truth about climate change https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23778399/media-ignores-climate-change-beef-meat-dairy https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23778399/media-ignores-cl... Why the media too often ignores the connection between climate change and meat https://www.salon.com/2023/05/13/how-big-oil-is-manipulating-the-way-you-think-about-climate-change/ https://www.salon.com/2023/05/13/how-big-oil-is-manipulating...
Gigachad 3y ago
Would standards of living really decline that much if we didn’t all have mega SUVs and the latest years iPhone? There is so much consumption that is absolute crap and could easily be cut out while honestly improving life.
- bluescrn 3y ago
  > Would standards of living really decline that much if we didn’t all have mega SUVs and the latest years iPhone? Would emissions really decline by a measurable amount if the changes were limited to that? If we're going to have any impact on the climate, changes need to be drastic and on a global scale. But at the same time, governments will not accept an end to economic growth, let alone a managed 'degrowth'. They can't even allow an end to population growth as it's such an important factor in economic growth. If we can't even end the era of hugely destructive wars between nations, what hope is there for the human race coming together on the scale necessary to slow/reverse climate change?

myshpa 3y ago

> we can turn rich countries into poor countries by taking away transport City and economy planning, work from home, basic income, degrowth ... > energy Renewable energy, insulation and heat pumps, not air-conditioners. > protein from the working class That's propaganda, and now you're getting somewhere. We already get 63% of our protein from plants. If we were to extend that to 100%, we could store our entire 1.5C carbon budget through afforesting and rewilding pastures, which would also help restore biodiversity. Climate change, resource depletion, deforestation, loss of biodiversity, pollution, overpopulation, soil erosion, and overfishing are all but symptoms of ecological overshoot. Switching off animal protein would help solve climate change (15-25% impact, co2/methane/n20), deforestation, pollution, soil erosion and overfishing. So it's one of the most impactful things we should do ... helping to solve 5 things out of 7. > But that approach also destroys most of the hope for technological solutions. We don't have any such solutions, that's something that sways the attention from things we already have at our disposal (just wait for this one thing that may or may not come ...). > And even if the richest countries did sacrifice everything Rich countries did/are doing most of the damage, the poorest ones are the ones paying most for it. If everyone would act as we do, we would need several more earths. > if many other countries continued pursuing growth of economies, consumption, and population Should they stay underdeveloped, or die out just so we could still be living like pigs in clover ?

BasedAnon 3y ago
>That's propaganda, and now you're getting somewhere. We already get 63% of our protein from plants. If we were to extend that to 100%, we could store our entire 1.5C carbon budget through afforesting and rewilding pastures, which would also help restore biodiversity. Protein is not created equally. It is not possible to maintain a healthy diet using sustainable low-energy sources of plant protein in place of meat. Meat is not an optional part of our diet. There have been plenty of studies detailing the dietary impact of vegan diets.
- myshpa 3y ago
  https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-chea... Sustainable eating is cheaper and healthier - Oxford study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35719615/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35719615/ Plant-based diets were protective against cancers of the digestive system, with no significant differences between different types of cancer, a meta-analysis based on 3,059,009 subjects https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/04/meat-tax-would-boost-health-and-cut-heathcare-spending-research/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/04/meat-tax-would-boost-health... Meat tax would boost health and cut healthcare spending: research https://www.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/over-17000-doctors-call-on-white-house-to-shape-nutrition-policy-on-plant-based-diets.html https://www.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/over-17000-doctors... Over 17,000 doctors call on White House to shape nutrition policy on plant-based diets "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes." - American Dietetic Association "A vegetarian or vegan diet can be suitable for everyone, regardless of their age." - NHS UK "[I]t is possible to follow a well-planned, plant-based, vegan friendly diet that supports healthy living in people of all ages, and during pregnancy and breastfeeding." - British Dietetic Association. "For adults, protein from two or more plant groups daily is like to be adequate. " - World Health Organisation > There have been plenty of studies detailing the dietary impact of vegan diets Meat & dairy industry is spending massive amounts of money of keeping the status quo as long as possible, same as with cigarettes or fossil fuels. A lot of those studies are paid for, be aware. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/03/beef-industry-public-relations-messaging-machine https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/03/beef-ind... Inside big beef’s climate messaging machine: confuse, defend and downplay https://newrepublic.com/article/171781/meat-culture-war-crickets https://newrepublic.com/article/171781/meat-culture-war-cric... Why Right-Wingers Are So Afraid of Men Eating Vegetables https://www.salon.com/2022/11/11/the-meat-industry-is-borrowing-tactics-from-big-oil-to-obfuscate-the-truth-about-climate-change/ https://www.salon.com/2022/11/11/the-meat-industry-is-borrow... The meat industry is borrowing tactics from Big Oil to obfuscate the truth about climate change https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23778399/media-ignores-climate-change-beef-meat-dairy https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23778399/media-ignores-cl... Why the media too often ignores the connection between climate change and meat https://www.salon.com/2023/05/13/how-big-oil-is-manipulating-the-way-you-think-about-climate-change/ https://www.salon.com/2023/05/13/how-big-oil-is-manipulating...

Gigachad 3y ago

Would standards of living really decline that much if we didn’t all have mega SUVs and the latest years iPhone? There is so much consumption that is absolute crap and could easily be cut out while honestly improving life.

bluescrn 3y ago
> Would standards of living really decline that much if we didn’t all have mega SUVs and the latest years iPhone? Would emissions really decline by a measurable amount if the changes were limited to that? If we're going to have any impact on the climate, changes need to be drastic and on a global scale. But at the same time, governments will not accept an end to economic growth, let alone a managed 'degrowth'. They can't even allow an end to population growth as it's such an important factor in economic growth. If we can't even end the era of hugely destructive wars between nations, what hope is there for the human race coming together on the scale necessary to slow/reverse climate change?