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Australia should just kick the US out. How can you have a meaningful defense partnership with a country that holds your own journalists hostage? Can you imagine

Australia should just kick the US out. How can you have a meaningful defense partnership with a country that holds your own journalists hostage? Can you imagine if China and Canada had been collaborating on defense while the two Michaels thing was going on?

nness 3y ago
Not worked well for Austraila, before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_CIA_involvement_in_the_Whitlam_dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_CIA_involvement_in_the...
inconceivable 3y ago
australians deeply hate/fear china at a visceral level, which is pretty much the only thing that matters in this relationship. they'll gladly sacrifice their own economic growth and autonomy to bolster the US hegemony. this is patently obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together. it's less than 20 million white people sitting on a continent the size of the US. they need protection at any cost, no questions asked. this isn't rocket science. DC wears the commonwealth crown these days, london is a literal sideshow/museum/slush fund and canberra is basically just a military/listening outpost with a mining station attached.
- roenxi 3y ago
  "hate" is too strong. Australia and China have both prospered together for many years. Australia has too much to be thankful to China for. It is more likely pure fear. If current trends continue, at some point Australia'll have to knuckle under and start aligning ourselves with Chinese policy or get squished by them. And If the US/South America dynamic is any standard to go by, they'll probably start taking a more active role in moderating Australian politics which isn't welcome to the current politicians.
- ganeshkrishnan 3y ago
  It's not the fear of china. Australia cannot make an independent decision without facing the wrath of the US. There is no way Australia or UK can part ways with US diplomatically
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    According to your comment, it's not fear/hate of China, it's fear/hate of the US.
    - dirtyid 3y ago
      IMO more US discourse power via influence over news orgs, ngos, think tanks etc allows them to control who to hate/fear. Both geopolitical adversaries AND anti US candidates in partner countries. Domestic media in LIO countries can't compete against motivated US propaganda, nevermind PRC propaganda. It's inability to counter US interests when push comes to shove. Especially AU who is maximally/existentially integrated in US defense, they don't have the conditions to pursue independant foreign policy even if they wanted to.
      - inconceivable 3y ago
        yes - the US tells them who to fear and who to hate, and why. the entire anglosphere follows the beat of their drummer. it's obvious if you ever travel outside of the 5 eyes countries + NATO, which i'm guessing like 90% of english speakers don't, and never will.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- sandworm101 3y ago
  The UK also has a strategic position as part of the giuk gap.
- keepamovin 3y ago
  I’m sorry you had this experience, but it’s true. Australians are often deeply racist. However, Chinese are too. It’s unfortunate, but it’s not the main issue. One issue Australians have is their vastly inferior (in general) level of rhetorical facility on these matters, as compared to Chinese. We just don’t have the quality of critical thought that many young Chinese are displaying. This sounds ridiculous, I know, but again it’s true. If Australia is going to effectively think about, and eventually negotiate, its place in the changing order, its citizens need to get a lot more cosmopolitan, critical and perceptive about international affairs. For educated Chinese, I suspect thinking critically about international perceptions and power (and possibly even relations) is almost second nature: it makes sense to have it as a National pastime for an emerging power. Australians need to recognize the necessity of this for their own position, too, and work to let go of the limiting policy dogma that continues to constrain and limit their political thinking. It may not be too useful to promote Paul Keating as a role model for this type of critical faculty as his stances will provoke too much opposition for people to want to admire or follow him. Yet the truth is his kind of contrarian policy thinking is exactly more of what Australian needs, even if of not exactly the same flavor. Unfortunately, we’ve been a victim of our own success, and our economic buffer will conceivably for the midterm, insulate us from the urgent need to develop the critical faculties that are so essential to our long-term future. In other words, people can say “why do I need to rethink it? we’re doing great.”
  - mistrial9 3y ago
    minor addition to the above -- China has an abundance of computer science skill at the population level, and specialist University-level math and computer science in numbers similar to entire populations elsewhere. The cliche failing of Chinese thinkers - lack of originality - is not nearly as much of an impediment in CS. The number of DeepLearning and AI academic papers in the last five years or so, might not be "the" winning paper, but thousands are good enough.
  - piuantiderp 3y ago
    Reminds me of this piece jewel of a piece, there are deep cultural problems in the west: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/04/russias-diplomats-are-better-than-ours-105773/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/04/russias-dipl...
contingencies 3y ago
I hear on the grapevine that all US submarines globally are managed from a secret facility in northern Australia, which no longer need to surface as they now have water penetrating signals presumably from LEO satellites. Given that substantial importance alone, let alone Pine Gap, I don't think the US would allow kick-out. They'd just run some kind of CIA thing internally and rejig Aussie politics, which is a joke any way you look at it.... the only creatures in parliament last time I visited were a bunch of galahs doing a bit of grass on the roof. The only people keeping Aussie politicians relatively honest were the ABC, and they've been defunded. Canberra, Australia's political capital, representing the depth and expanse of its defense and political establishment, is its fastest growing city. Yet 45 minutes out of town there is no phone signal, like a developing country, and the bars say their best business comes when parliament is sitting. Source: Visited a month ago.
- cempaka 3y ago
  > They'd just run some kind of CIA thing internally and rejig Aussie politics Did it once already: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/gough-whitlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/gough-...
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
> holds your own journalists hostage? The rub is that he is not a journalist.
- lmpdev 3y ago
  Ahem we have other journalists we hold hostage Edit: this is a joke about our National Security Laws and frivolous use of Gag Orders. Plus the AFP raiding journalists on a whim
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    Who and for which crimes?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
inopinatus 3y ago
the Australian government does not give a fuck about Australian citizens getting themselves in deep shit overseas, never has, never will and it's because the ones that persist in doing so would wear their entitlement on every bloody sleeve so hard until every consulate is jammed up dealing with the procedural consequences of every half-cocked larrikin pisshead that tries stealing a tuk-tuk or whatever, and by the gods we export enough of them, sorry world
- eastbound 3y ago
  That may be your perception. On the other hand, there are posters in your airports saying that if an Australian uses prostitution overseas, he will be arrested when he comes back.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - wzdd 3y ago
    No there aren’t, as a quick search for the legality of prostitution in Australia would have told you. You may have missed the word “child”, as sex tourism of this kind is unfortunately still a problem.
  - nmfisher 3y ago
    Wait, really? I haven't seen these before.
  - jbsimpson 3y ago
    are you sure it wasn't prostitution but child abuse overseas that was illegal?
    - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
      I think he meant child prostitution, which is a popular pursuit for some Australian* men in certain Asian countries. * But not exclusively, see Gary Glitter for instance.
lmpdev 3y ago
Australian here We are a subimperial power. The metaphorical "empire" here being the "rules based" world order the US has established since WWII We are the most powerful nation in Oceania but ultimately cannot confront the US when differences between us arise We're one of the world's largest sources of minerals and land for the next few centuries. I don't think it's impossible we can't be invaded by a certainforeignpower by 2100 We're locally important, globally powerless and are clinging to the existing relational ties we have with our big brother, the US. Even to the determent of our own citizens
- sandworm101 3y ago
  Australia is also still remote. It is literally far away from mostly things. Compare Canada, similar in size/resources/people/politics but geographically much closer to centers of power. Canada has more to fear.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    It has Indonesia immediately to its north with a population of 275 million, it's not far away from potential trouble.
    - zarzavat 3y ago
      That’s not a fair characterization. Indonesia has suffered at the hands of two empires, first the Dutch then the Japanese. It is not an expansionist power or a threat to Australia any more than New Zealand is. Just because people look different or have different beliefs doesn’t make them threats, that’s a primitive form of thinking that humanity ought to move away from.
      - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
        Beyond the population and proximity, I'm not characterising anything. You're reading in a lot into my comment. But in Australian politics, Indonesia as a potential, albeit very unlikely, threat has been discussed, with the point being that 275 million people in a somewhat politically unstable country has that potential. It's only in this century that Indonesia has become a functioning democracy and has had authoritarian and sometimes brutal leaders, slaughtering hundreds of thousands, in the not so distant past. It currently has relatively good relations with Australia but they are not close or secure. No one is accusing them of anything but there is a non-zero chance of them becoming a threat.
dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
The journalist thing is a fig leaf. He had a clear political agenda and happily did the bidding of the Russians (and others) in an attempt to score political points. Calling yourself a journalist is not a get out of jail free card. Meanwhile Australia relies on the US for it's security. It has basically no hope of defending its land mass with its existing defense force and has no interest in funding one that could. If you put your proposal to Australians you'd basically have no hope of getting a majority that agreed.
- throwawayqqq11 3y ago
  Does his agenda make him lie? Does it have any impact on the sources, that used wikileaks? No? Then why is it important? You were right, it is a fig leaf for ones and a strawman for others. The main problem, we as a society have, is a embassing lack of problem awareness! Guess what wikileaks does, i beg you.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    > Does his agenda make him lie? He accepted hacked emails from the Russians and released them in a way to effect his goal of having Clinton lose the election. That was his stated goal. You wouldn't call it a lie, but calling yourself a journalist on that basis certainly is. Most people who back Assange just agree with his politics and/or means to an ends. But they don't have that level of awareness.
    - throwawayqqq11 3y ago
      So telling the truth at the wrong time makes it immoral? Stories of high interest, not coming from him.
    - theironhammer 3y ago
      H Clinton was a terrible candidate. That's why she lost. Neoliberalism has destroyed the working class. Democrat elites too arrogant to blame themselves for their own stupidly tried to blame Putin/Russians and now we have a war in Ukraine. How's that war going in Ukraine? If it's strictly a policy to make the military industrial complex rich it's a huge success. By all other measures it's an effing disaster.
ChumpGPT 3y ago
Yeah, they should just kick the US out over Julian Assange, that'll teach them a good lesson they won't soon forget. Who needs the USA anyway, Australia will be fine without them.
- BLKNSLVR 3y ago
  I know I'm replying to sarcasm, but China would literally buddy up to Australia as soon as any rift between between Australia and the US became publicised. Australia potentially has more value to the US than vice versa.
  - TeaBrain 3y ago
    Over 85% of Australians have an unfavorable view of China, which is greater than the % having an unfavorable view of China in the US. Australia's partnership with the US is largely due to China. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/07/27/views-of-china/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/07/27/views-of-china...

nness 3y ago

Not worked well for Austraila, before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_CIA_involvement_in_the_Whitlam_dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_CIA_involvement_in_the...

inconceivable 3y ago

australians deeply hate/fear china at a visceral level, which is pretty much the only thing that matters in this relationship. they'll gladly sacrifice their own economic growth and autonomy to bolster the US hegemony. this is patently obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together. it's less than 20 million white people sitting on a continent the size of the US. they need protection at any cost, no questions asked. this isn't rocket science. DC wears the commonwealth crown these days, london is a literal sideshow/museum/slush fund and canberra is basically just a military/listening outpost with a mining station attached.

roenxi 3y ago
"hate" is too strong. Australia and China have both prospered together for many years. Australia has too much to be thankful to China for. It is more likely pure fear. If current trends continue, at some point Australia'll have to knuckle under and start aligning ourselves with Chinese policy or get squished by them. And If the US/South America dynamic is any standard to go by, they'll probably start taking a more active role in moderating Australian politics which isn't welcome to the current politicians.
ganeshkrishnan 3y ago
It's not the fear of china. Australia cannot make an independent decision without facing the wrath of the US. There is no way Australia or UK can part ways with US diplomatically
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  According to your comment, it's not fear/hate of China, it's fear/hate of the US.
  - dirtyid 3y ago
    IMO more US discourse power via influence over news orgs, ngos, think tanks etc allows them to control who to hate/fear. Both geopolitical adversaries AND anti US candidates in partner countries. Domestic media in LIO countries can't compete against motivated US propaganda, nevermind PRC propaganda. It's inability to counter US interests when push comes to shove. Especially AU who is maximally/existentially integrated in US defense, they don't have the conditions to pursue independant foreign policy even if they wanted to.
    - inconceivable 3y ago
      yes - the US tells them who to fear and who to hate, and why. the entire anglosphere follows the beat of their drummer. it's obvious if you ever travel outside of the 5 eyes countries + NATO, which i'm guessing like 90% of english speakers don't, and never will.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
sandworm101 3y ago
The UK also has a strategic position as part of the giuk gap.
keepamovin 3y ago
I’m sorry you had this experience, but it’s true. Australians are often deeply racist. However, Chinese are too. It’s unfortunate, but it’s not the main issue. One issue Australians have is their vastly inferior (in general) level of rhetorical facility on these matters, as compared to Chinese. We just don’t have the quality of critical thought that many young Chinese are displaying. This sounds ridiculous, I know, but again it’s true. If Australia is going to effectively think about, and eventually negotiate, its place in the changing order, its citizens need to get a lot more cosmopolitan, critical and perceptive about international affairs. For educated Chinese, I suspect thinking critically about international perceptions and power (and possibly even relations) is almost second nature: it makes sense to have it as a National pastime for an emerging power. Australians need to recognize the necessity of this for their own position, too, and work to let go of the limiting policy dogma that continues to constrain and limit their political thinking. It may not be too useful to promote Paul Keating as a role model for this type of critical faculty as his stances will provoke too much opposition for people to want to admire or follow him. Yet the truth is his kind of contrarian policy thinking is exactly more of what Australian needs, even if of not exactly the same flavor. Unfortunately, we’ve been a victim of our own success, and our economic buffer will conceivably for the midterm, insulate us from the urgent need to develop the critical faculties that are so essential to our long-term future. In other words, people can say “why do I need to rethink it? we’re doing great.”
- mistrial9 3y ago
  minor addition to the above -- China has an abundance of computer science skill at the population level, and specialist University-level math and computer science in numbers similar to entire populations elsewhere. The cliche failing of Chinese thinkers - lack of originality - is not nearly as much of an impediment in CS. The number of DeepLearning and AI academic papers in the last five years or so, might not be "the" winning paper, but thousands are good enough.
- piuantiderp 3y ago
  Reminds me of this piece jewel of a piece, there are deep cultural problems in the west: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/04/russias-diplomats-are-better-than-ours-105773/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/04/russias-dipl...

contingencies 3y ago

I hear on the grapevine that all US submarines globally are managed from a secret facility in northern Australia, which no longer need to surface as they now have water penetrating signals presumably from LEO satellites. Given that substantial importance alone, let alone Pine Gap, I don't think the US would allow kick-out. They'd just run some kind of CIA thing internally and rejig Aussie politics, which is a joke any way you look at it.... the only creatures in parliament last time I visited were a bunch of galahs doing a bit of grass on the roof. The only people keeping Aussie politicians relatively honest were the ABC, and they've been defunded. Canberra, Australia's political capital, representing the depth and expanse of its defense and political establishment, is its fastest growing city. Yet 45 minutes out of town there is no phone signal, like a developing country, and the bars say their best business comes when parliament is sitting. Source: Visited a month ago.

cempaka 3y ago
> They'd just run some kind of CIA thing internally and rejig Aussie politics Did it once already: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/gough-whitlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/gough-...

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

> holds your own journalists hostage? The rub is that he is not a journalist.

lmpdev 3y ago
Ahem we have other journalists we hold hostage Edit: this is a joke about our National Security Laws and frivolous use of Gag Orders. Plus the AFP raiding journalists on a whim
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  Who and for which crimes?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

inopinatus 3y ago

the Australian government does not give a fuck about Australian citizens getting themselves in deep shit overseas, never has, never will and it's because the ones that persist in doing so would wear their entitlement on every bloody sleeve so hard until every consulate is jammed up dealing with the procedural consequences of every half-cocked larrikin pisshead that tries stealing a tuk-tuk or whatever, and by the gods we export enough of them, sorry world

eastbound 3y ago
That may be your perception. On the other hand, there are posters in your airports saying that if an Australian uses prostitution overseas, he will be arrested when he comes back.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- wzdd 3y ago
  No there aren’t, as a quick search for the legality of prostitution in Australia would have told you. You may have missed the word “child”, as sex tourism of this kind is unfortunately still a problem.
- nmfisher 3y ago
  Wait, really? I haven't seen these before.
- jbsimpson 3y ago
  are you sure it wasn't prostitution but child abuse overseas that was illegal?
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    I think he meant child prostitution, which is a popular pursuit for some Australian* men in certain Asian countries. * But not exclusively, see Gary Glitter for instance.

lmpdev 3y ago

Australian here We are a subimperial power. The metaphorical "empire" here being the "rules based" world order the US has established since WWII We are the most powerful nation in Oceania but ultimately cannot confront the US when differences between us arise We're one of the world's largest sources of minerals and land for the next few centuries. I don't think it's impossible we can't be invaded by a certainforeignpower by 2100 We're locally important, globally powerless and are clinging to the existing relational ties we have with our big brother, the US. Even to the determent of our own citizens

sandworm101 3y ago
Australia is also still remote. It is literally far away from mostly things. Compare Canada, similar in size/resources/people/politics but geographically much closer to centers of power. Canada has more to fear.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  It has Indonesia immediately to its north with a population of 275 million, it's not far away from potential trouble.
  - zarzavat 3y ago
    That’s not a fair characterization. Indonesia has suffered at the hands of two empires, first the Dutch then the Japanese. It is not an expansionist power or a threat to Australia any more than New Zealand is. Just because people look different or have different beliefs doesn’t make them threats, that’s a primitive form of thinking that humanity ought to move away from.
    - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
      Beyond the population and proximity, I'm not characterising anything. You're reading in a lot into my comment. But in Australian politics, Indonesia as a potential, albeit very unlikely, threat has been discussed, with the point being that 275 million people in a somewhat politically unstable country has that potential. It's only in this century that Indonesia has become a functioning democracy and has had authoritarian and sometimes brutal leaders, slaughtering hundreds of thousands, in the not so distant past. It currently has relatively good relations with Australia but they are not close or secure. No one is accusing them of anything but there is a non-zero chance of them becoming a threat.

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago

The journalist thing is a fig leaf. He had a clear political agenda and happily did the bidding of the Russians (and others) in an attempt to score political points. Calling yourself a journalist is not a get out of jail free card. Meanwhile Australia relies on the US for it's security. It has basically no hope of defending its land mass with its existing defense force and has no interest in funding one that could. If you put your proposal to Australians you'd basically have no hope of getting a majority that agreed.

throwawayqqq11 3y ago
Does his agenda make him lie? Does it have any impact on the sources, that used wikileaks? No? Then why is it important? You were right, it is a fig leaf for ones and a strawman for others. The main problem, we as a society have, is a embassing lack of problem awareness! Guess what wikileaks does, i beg you.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  > Does his agenda make him lie? He accepted hacked emails from the Russians and released them in a way to effect his goal of having Clinton lose the election. That was his stated goal. You wouldn't call it a lie, but calling yourself a journalist on that basis certainly is. Most people who back Assange just agree with his politics and/or means to an ends. But they don't have that level of awareness.
  - throwawayqqq11 3y ago
    So telling the truth at the wrong time makes it immoral? Stories of high interest, not coming from him.
  - theironhammer 3y ago
    H Clinton was a terrible candidate. That's why she lost. Neoliberalism has destroyed the working class. Democrat elites too arrogant to blame themselves for their own stupidly tried to blame Putin/Russians and now we have a war in Ukraine. How's that war going in Ukraine? If it's strictly a policy to make the military industrial complex rich it's a huge success. By all other measures it's an effing disaster.

ChumpGPT 3y ago

Yeah, they should just kick the US out over Julian Assange, that'll teach them a good lesson they won't soon forget. Who needs the USA anyway, Australia will be fine without them.

BLKNSLVR 3y ago
I know I'm replying to sarcasm, but China would literally buddy up to Australia as soon as any rift between between Australia and the US became publicised. Australia potentially has more value to the US than vice versa.
- TeaBrain 3y ago
  Over 85% of Australians have an unfavorable view of China, which is greater than the % having an unfavorable view of China in the US. Australia's partnership with the US is largely due to China. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/07/27/views-of-china/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/07/27/views-of-china...