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I thought it had already been demonstrated that butterflies retain memories acquired premetamorphosis? Eg, https://www.wired.com/2008/03/butterflies-rem/ https

I thought it had already been demonstrated that butterflies retain memories acquired premetamorphosis? Eg, https://www.wired.com/2008/03/butterflies-rem/ https://www.wired.com/2008/03/butterflies-rem/ The article is odd because it's written as if this hasn't been tested and it has, or I thought it had. Towards the end they acknowledge butterflies might be different, but don't mention any of the prior research at all. The whole article is structured very strangely given the existing literature.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
stevenwoo 3y ago
It is odd they don't mention that paper, but there is a caveat buried near the bottom in about prior studies showing it in higher insects and how fly brains are more primitive than butterflies. IIRC only about 2/3 to 3/4 of butterflies of the type tested retained the aversion response, and only if they were of a certain age - they needed to have certain cells developed in caterpillar form to be able to remember. It is possible that the species they studied simply does not retain memories or that they missed the development window or that the method they used would not detect memories - the butterfly study showed aversion behavior to smell, this one does not measure behavior at all - it's possible that some behavior was retained but they did not measure it, though I think the particular cells they studied in flies is the same one the butterfly studies relied upon existing to work. Off the top of my head, monarch butterflies taking multiple generations to travel up and down the west coast to and from Mexico each year implies if not conscious memory as we think of it, some sort of genetic imprint of how and where to travel that is mind blowing to me.
- taneq 3y ago
  To sidetrack the original story slightly, and not aimed at this particular paper, but this kind of chicanery is what made me give up on academia. The basic foundation of academic science is sound enough, but this style of cooking results by omitting critically relevant comparisons or including semi-irrelevant approaches just because they make yours look good is pervasive and unbearable.
samstave 3y ago
Yes! Monarch butterflies have a multigenerational migration in which every third generation is the super generation with the migration memory
- rcme 3y ago
  That’s pretty much the opposite of memory, as the behavior is completely innate.
  - samstave 3y ago
    There are so many interesting stories on them, https://duckduckgo.com/?q=npr+talk+monarch+butterflies&atb=v381-1&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=npr+talk+monarch+butterflies&atb=v... But one thing thats reall interesting is that we have been decimating their only foodsource and breeding grounds ; milkweed. We treat milkweed, as a weed and its decimated by RoundUp (monsatan) https://www.nwf.org/Garden-For-Wildlife/About/Native-Plants/Milkweed.aspx https://www.nwf.org/Garden-For-Wildlife/About/Native-Plants/... but its really interesting that there is a really large hippocampus in birds, and some insects - which allows for them to have a really spacial/geographic memory - they recall where they find food. But the interesting thing about monarchs is that this information has some ability to encode over skipped generations... But because we monsatan the "weeds" we are FN the monarchs up. When I wasa child, in Lake Tahoe Monarchs were on the migration path and we would have entire pine trees covered in them https://imgur.com/gallery/acxne3V https://imgur.com/gallery/acxne3V This was a regular for me in elemetary school...
    - mock-possum 3y ago
      BRB, grabbing milkweed to plant in my yard
      - samstave 3y ago
        Does a "Mock-Possum" Play *Live* to enscape capture?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

stevenwoo 3y ago

It is odd they don't mention that paper, but there is a caveat buried near the bottom in about prior studies showing it in higher insects and how fly brains are more primitive than butterflies. IIRC only about 2/3 to 3/4 of butterflies of the type tested retained the aversion response, and only if they were of a certain age - they needed to have certain cells developed in caterpillar form to be able to remember. It is possible that the species they studied simply does not retain memories or that they missed the development window or that the method they used would not detect memories - the butterfly study showed aversion behavior to smell, this one does not measure behavior at all - it's possible that some behavior was retained but they did not measure it, though I think the particular cells they studied in flies is the same one the butterfly studies relied upon existing to work. Off the top of my head, monarch butterflies taking multiple generations to travel up and down the west coast to and from Mexico each year implies if not conscious memory as we think of it, some sort of genetic imprint of how and where to travel that is mind blowing to me.

taneq 3y ago
To sidetrack the original story slightly, and not aimed at this particular paper, but this kind of chicanery is what made me give up on academia. The basic foundation of academic science is sound enough, but this style of cooking results by omitting critically relevant comparisons or including semi-irrelevant approaches just because they make yours look good is pervasive and unbearable.

samstave 3y ago

Yes! Monarch butterflies have a multigenerational migration in which every third generation is the super generation with the migration memory

rcme 3y ago
That’s pretty much the opposite of memory, as the behavior is completely innate.
- samstave 3y ago
  There are so many interesting stories on them, https://duckduckgo.com/?q=npr+talk+monarch+butterflies&atb=v381-1&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=npr+talk+monarch+butterflies&atb=v... But one thing thats reall interesting is that we have been decimating their only foodsource and breeding grounds ; milkweed. We treat milkweed, as a weed and its decimated by RoundUp (monsatan) https://www.nwf.org/Garden-For-Wildlife/About/Native-Plants/Milkweed.aspx https://www.nwf.org/Garden-For-Wildlife/About/Native-Plants/... but its really interesting that there is a really large hippocampus in birds, and some insects - which allows for them to have a really spacial/geographic memory - they recall where they find food. But the interesting thing about monarchs is that this information has some ability to encode over skipped generations... But because we monsatan the "weeds" we are FN the monarchs up. When I wasa child, in Lake Tahoe Monarchs were on the migration path and we would have entire pine trees covered in them https://imgur.com/gallery/acxne3V https://imgur.com/gallery/acxne3V This was a regular for me in elemetary school...
  - mock-possum 3y ago
    BRB, grabbing milkweed to plant in my yard
    - samstave 3y ago
      Does a "Mock-Possum" Play *Live* to enscape capture?