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As a manager at a European tech company specialising in AI, I call BS on your statement. EU legislation doesn’t stifle innovation. It stifles abuse of technolo

As a manager at a European tech company specialising in AI, I call BS on your statement. EU legislation doesn’t stifle innovation. It stifles abuse of technology. If the only innovation America and Asia can muster is abuses of technology (I know this isn’t the case but I’m borrowing from your statement) then I’m perfectly fine with the EU lagging behind.

thrown1212 3y ago
The “EU bad” line gets rolled out so often on HN it has become its own truth. “Everyone knows” that the EU tech industry is getting strangled by its technocratic regulators and that’s why the EU fails at tech har har look at these idiots. Etc.
- carom 3y ago
  Where are their datacenter scale computing companies? How many decades did it take for that to arrive there? It will be the same story with AI. European developer brain drain will continue with the brightest minds coming to America.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >European developer brain drain will continue with the brightest minds coming to America. No need to deal with all the US emigration issues and challenges. US big-tech already have offices in Europe where European devs, scientists and researchers contribute to the prosperity of the US tech sector because they get paid more than at EU companies, while still getting to enjoy the benefits of living in Europe vs the US.
    - YetAnotherNick 3y ago
      Paying 1/3rd for the same cost of living.
      - jdthedisciple 3y ago
        Haha, sad but seems true on the face of it?
      - hnlmorg 3y ago
        I’ve hired and worked in both California and Europe. The cost of living is definitely not the same.
        YetAnotherNick 3y ago
        What's your point? There are places in California more expensive than most of Europe, and there are places in Europe which is more expensive than most of California. What I said was that if you take two cities which have same cost of living, the salary is like 2-3x higher in US.
        hnlmorg 3y ago
        I thought my point was pretty clear: there isn’t two cities with the same cost of living AND where the US still pays 2-3x higher in the US. Every time this conversation comes up on HN, the only examples people can cite is when remote working is taken into account. Which isn’t a fair comparison at all.
  - hnlmorg 3y ago
    > Where are their datacenter scale computing companies There are loads. OVH and BT for example. Both of which predate AWS and GCP. > How many decades did it take for that to arrive there? Less time than the US. We also have, in general, faster internet at cheaper prices and better rural connectivity too. To be clear, I’m not suggesting Europe is better than the US. Just stating that this “innovation could only happen in the US” meme is bullshit. > It will be the same story with AI. I literally just said I work for an AI tech company in Europe. And my company is hardly an isolated case. > European developer brain drain will continue with the brightest minds coming to America. You do realise that London, Berlin and other European tech hubs have their fair share of talented engineers who have moved to that country for work too? America might have Silicon Valley but it’s hardly the only tech hub in the world.
    - dlkf 3y ago
      > OVH and BT for example. Both of which predate AWS and GCP. How is this not an own goal? These companies had a head start and they still lost. Not by a little, but by such a staggering margin that AWS does two OOMs more revenue. > I literally just said I work for an AI tech company in Europe. The argument is not ”there are no AI companies in Europe.” The argument is ”there are no competitive AI companies in Europe.” The only one I can think of is DeepMind, and they are A) English (no longer EU) and B) were acquired by Google ten years ago. What are these European tech companies that are competitive with Nvidia, OpenAI, Google, etc? I’d like to learn more. > You do realise that London, Berlin and other European tech hubs have their fair share of talented engineers who have moved to that country for work too? A lot of them work for subsidiaries of American companies.
      - hnlmorg 3y ago
        > How is this not an own goal? These companies had a head start and they still lost. They’re hugely successful corporations. Saying they’ve “lost” is a tad ridiculous. Plus monopolies are bad for innovation so you could argue that Europe has a healthier ecosystem because it is tougher on monopolies than America. > The argument is not ”there are no AI companies in Europe.” The argument is ”there are no competitive AI companies in Europe.” You phrase that like it was a quote but in fact it wasn’t. The point being argued was that AI start ups couldn’t exist and I demonstrated they could. Europe is also a hotspot of AI research: https://odsc.medium.com/top-ten-european-ai-research-labs-for-2022-9c19ea60d3cd https://odsc.medium.com/top-ten-european-ai-research-labs-fo... > The only one I can think of is DeepMind, and they are A) English (no longer EU) and B) were acquired by Google ten years ago. England was in the EU 10 years ago, EU legislations were carried over to English law after “Brexit” and the fact that they were good enough to be bought by Google also demonstrates that European companies can be seen as a threat. > A lot of them work for subsidiaries of American companies. And a lot of them don’t. I had my worked for a single American subsidiary in my 20 years of experience in Europe. Same is true for a lot of my friends too. I really do get fed up with how some Americans believe it’s impossible that any other country could be successful.
  - zirgs 3y ago
    Not everyone wants to uproot their life and leave their friends and family behind.
  - fxtentacle 3y ago
    European LLM beating OpenAI davinci at NLP: https://www.aleph-alpha.com/luminous-performance-benchmarks https://www.aleph-alpha.com/luminous-performance-benchmarks It'll probably be "good enough" for most industry usecases ;) And you can run it offline and on-prem, which is a big deal to the many companies who DO NOT want their internal data leaking to OpenAI. And the Carrefour AI stuff is hosted on OVH cloud (in France), I believe: https://www.carrefour.com/en/news/artificial-intelligence-optimise-carrefours-supply-chain https://www.carrefour.com/en/news/artificial-intelligence-op... OVH has roughly 15% of the revenue that Google Cloud makes in Europe. So I'd put them at a similar size to Oracle Cloud, but clearly larger than DigitalOcean.
- l5870uoo9y 3y ago
  I haven't spoken to a single technical person in Europe who doesn't despise the GDPR. It is only praised by the Eurocrats themselves or the whole pack of NGOs/think tanks who lives off EU funding. As a guy with a startup I naturally fear this will be as counterproductive as GDPR or the decades of lawsuits against various foreign tech corporations. The fundamental problem is however with the political class.
  - sensanaty 3y ago
    > I haven't spoken to a single technical person in Europe who doesn't despise the GDPR Then I suspect you haven't spoken to anyone technical. Every single person in my company on the dev team (myself included) is extremely pro GDPR, not the least because it provides us safety from leeches that would try to impose some horrid user-violating tracking in the app we make. The greedy suit wants us to track every millimeter of the user's mouse on the page? Nope, thanks, better luck next time! > As a guy with a startup... If your startup can't exist without hoovering infinite user data in perpetuity, then your startup shouldn't exist.
    - snordgren 3y ago
      The problem is that many European startups don't exist because potential founders don't want to have to deal with GDPR when they could focus on building a good product first. And yes, tracking what users focus on is very relevant to building a good product. But that kind of entrepreneurial mindset is largely absent in Europe - my guess is most Europeans with such a mindset eventually go to America, whether they were born in 1850 or 1985.
      - sensanaty 3y ago
        > ...when they could focus on building a good product first So not tracking every single molecule of detail about your users is incompatible with building a good product? If being entrepreneurial means that I have to violate my user's privacy then I'd rather not be an entrepreneur, thanks. And again, if your business can't survive without being invasive and malicious to your users, then your business shouldn't exist. You won't see me or anyone else reasonable weeping about the dissolution of such entities, either.
nforgerit 3y ago
(I love the EU, I really do. That much, that I really care about its ability for innovation.) As a European software engineer I'm calling BS on your statement, Mr Manager. EU legislation might not aim to stifle innovation (in contrast, they're always talking about a "level playing field") but their imprecise and vague regulation texts are like a loose cannon for whatever innovative business might come up if you have your first hire to be "the lawyer who gives legal advice in context of EU regulation". Now, those people will just quietly move away to find a new home-market for scaling up and then eventually selling to EU countries. This is not "lagging behind" but an economical fiasco since the same laws only help local oligopolies of gatekeeper enterprises and (the ones they initially aimed for) Big Tech who can afford licenses and lawyers. Two little examples (but there's more): - What about the safe harbor thing? It's all a grey area now after court rulings decided that pretty much all US-EU IT biz is at least partially violating the EU regulations. - We're now all happily clicking cookie banners and startups are getting sued by third-rate law firms. Some things were good with GDPR but did it help with Big Tech's (and meanwhile Tiktok's) way of collecting data? Nope.
- deely3 3y ago
  I understand and agree to your arguments, but I don't want to change EU. > like a loose cannon for whatever innovative business might come up if you have your first hire to be "the lawyer who gives legal advice in context of EU regulation". But loose cannon is better than no cannon. Also, how about not doing what is forbidden? You don't need to show cookie banner if you don't store cookies that helps to follow your users. You don't need to follow PII storing rules if you don't store PII. Look, yes this rules are hard to follow sometimes but thats exactly why we have it. I don't want to every company in the world to store my info without my consent and without possibility to delete it. Sorry, but companies should deal with it.
- sensanaty 3y ago
  You could always just not harvest infinite amounts of user data that you don't need? The company I work for doesn't even have a consent banner since we don't store anything that isn't vital to the service, and even then it's barely anything. If companies are so incapable of not harvesting data en-masse then they deserve to be sued out of existence and shut down for their shenanigans.
anothernewdude 3y ago
I'm so glad the EU exist to protect people from web fonts.
- sensanaty 3y ago
  It sure would be nice if we could indeed use fonts without it being a vector for invasively tracking people en-masse, alas greedy shareholders view things differently.
- csunbird 3y ago
  There is literally no need for google to know which sites I visit all over the web all the time, just because the web site owners were too lazy to host their own fonts.
ekidd 3y ago
> EU legislation doesn’t stifle innovation. It stifles abuse of technology. Honestly, my biggest complaints with EU software legislation are: 1. It doesn't scale down to tiny non-commercial or barely-commercial activities. 2. It theoretically proposes penalties on private people outside the EU (even though they are rarely imposed?). 3. I have no vote or representation. For example, I used to provide tiny, free web apps that performed useful tasks. These often had fewer than 100 users, and they kept no information that wasn't strictly necessary. But if you emailed me about them, I might not respond within a month, especially if I was traveling or something. The GDPR requires 30-day turnarounds for lots of stuff. I shut down all of these apps, because some of my users might have been in the EU? And I won't be releasing any more free web tools. It's all CLI now. Similarly, I host a small web forum in the US, and we have some EU users. We keep no information beyond that required to run a web forum. If you ask the moderators to delete all your posts on August 1st, well, I hope someone took their computer on vacation. Similarly, I maintain a couple of open source projects. Many of these are paid for by an employer, who makes the code available for free. In the past, I have occasionally added a feature to one of my projects as a consulting project for someone. But reading through https://www.techradar.com/pro/the-eus-product-liability-directive-could-kill-open-source https://www.techradar.com/pro/the-eus-product-liability-dire..., I see that I am now likely to have personal liability for my open source projects, towards people who have never paid me a cent. Sure, I do have liability towards the rare consulting customer who actually paid for something, which is carefully negotiated in our contract. But in the future, some random EU company I've never heard of will likely be able to use my software, pay me nothing, and make me liable? It's very hard to tell with current drafts. And I have at least one open source AI tool on GitHub, that's of no use to anyone. But I suppose I'll need to read the EU AI laws now, too. Sometimes I just want to build useful stuff (web apps, forums, open source tools) and give it away for free. But if I have any European users, I may get entangled in complex European laws. Honestly, there's zero upside for me supporting EU users, because I'm not benefiting from them, and I keep having to read hundreds of pages of incredibly vague laws in multiple languages. If the Product Liability Directive goes through in its current form, and if GitHub offers me a way to block EU downloads, I'll probably use it. I am not interested in supporting or encouraging commerical EU users who have never paid me anything.
- 3y ago
flagrant_taco 3y ago
While I agree with your main point that this type of legislation doesn't necessarily stifle innovation, the line of what is considered abuse is subjective. Legislation like this is effectively either the EU attempting to force their opinion of what is an acceptable use of tech on the rest of the world, or the EU committing to potentially fall behind on moral grounds. I actually greatly respect the second scenario if that's the situation, we'd all be better off if people chose their morals over profit and fear.
fnordpiglet 3y ago
Depending on the outcome I’ll call BS on your BS. Open source AI friendly regulation would certainly support your statement, while regulatory moat for megacorps with sophisticated compliance divisions would entirely obviate your statement. There is something though that’s chilling EU tech investment, whether it’s regulation or tech, regulation of funding vehicles, or some other artifact. All factors align to a vibrant EU tech sector, yet it’s just not present. This reflects in ludicrously low salaries, poor career prospects, and a lack of clout - better than trying to force tech standards via imperfect mechanisms like regulation the EU should be setting standards by virtue of its technical ability to create excellent tech standards and platforms. The best EU tech talent I know is working at some American company, be it megacorps like Google or Amazon, JPMC, or smaller tech companies like Datadog, etc. I don’t gloat in this - I wish all the world were firing on all cylinders in tech, space, science, engineering innovation. That’s the only way out of our broken way of doing things that’s killing our planet and our society.

thrown1212 3y ago

The “EU bad” line gets rolled out so often on HN it has become its own truth. “Everyone knows” that the EU tech industry is getting strangled by its technocratic regulators and that’s why the EU fails at tech har har look at these idiots. Etc.

carom 3y ago
Where are their datacenter scale computing companies? How many decades did it take for that to arrive there? It will be the same story with AI. European developer brain drain will continue with the brightest minds coming to America.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >European developer brain drain will continue with the brightest minds coming to America. No need to deal with all the US emigration issues and challenges. US big-tech already have offices in Europe where European devs, scientists and researchers contribute to the prosperity of the US tech sector because they get paid more than at EU companies, while still getting to enjoy the benefits of living in Europe vs the US.
  - YetAnotherNick 3y ago
    Paying 1/3rd for the same cost of living.
    - jdthedisciple 3y ago
      Haha, sad but seems true on the face of it?
    - hnlmorg 3y ago
      I’ve hired and worked in both California and Europe. The cost of living is definitely not the same.
      - YetAnotherNick 3y ago
        What's your point? There are places in California more expensive than most of Europe, and there are places in Europe which is more expensive than most of California. What I said was that if you take two cities which have same cost of living, the salary is like 2-3x higher in US.
        hnlmorg 3y ago
        I thought my point was pretty clear: there isn’t two cities with the same cost of living AND where the US still pays 2-3x higher in the US. Every time this conversation comes up on HN, the only examples people can cite is when remote working is taken into account. Which isn’t a fair comparison at all.
- hnlmorg 3y ago
  > Where are their datacenter scale computing companies There are loads. OVH and BT for example. Both of which predate AWS and GCP. > How many decades did it take for that to arrive there? Less time than the US. We also have, in general, faster internet at cheaper prices and better rural connectivity too. To be clear, I’m not suggesting Europe is better than the US. Just stating that this “innovation could only happen in the US” meme is bullshit. > It will be the same story with AI. I literally just said I work for an AI tech company in Europe. And my company is hardly an isolated case. > European developer brain drain will continue with the brightest minds coming to America. You do realise that London, Berlin and other European tech hubs have their fair share of talented engineers who have moved to that country for work too? America might have Silicon Valley but it’s hardly the only tech hub in the world.
  - dlkf 3y ago
    > OVH and BT for example. Both of which predate AWS and GCP. How is this not an own goal? These companies had a head start and they still lost. Not by a little, but by such a staggering margin that AWS does two OOMs more revenue. > I literally just said I work for an AI tech company in Europe. The argument is not ”there are no AI companies in Europe.” The argument is ”there are no competitive AI companies in Europe.” The only one I can think of is DeepMind, and they are A) English (no longer EU) and B) were acquired by Google ten years ago. What are these European tech companies that are competitive with Nvidia, OpenAI, Google, etc? I’d like to learn more. > You do realise that London, Berlin and other European tech hubs have their fair share of talented engineers who have moved to that country for work too? A lot of them work for subsidiaries of American companies.
    - hnlmorg 3y ago
      > How is this not an own goal? These companies had a head start and they still lost. They’re hugely successful corporations. Saying they’ve “lost” is a tad ridiculous. Plus monopolies are bad for innovation so you could argue that Europe has a healthier ecosystem because it is tougher on monopolies than America. > The argument is not ”there are no AI companies in Europe.” The argument is ”there are no competitive AI companies in Europe.” You phrase that like it was a quote but in fact it wasn’t. The point being argued was that AI start ups couldn’t exist and I demonstrated they could. Europe is also a hotspot of AI research: https://odsc.medium.com/top-ten-european-ai-research-labs-for-2022-9c19ea60d3cd https://odsc.medium.com/top-ten-european-ai-research-labs-fo... > The only one I can think of is DeepMind, and they are A) English (no longer EU) and B) were acquired by Google ten years ago. England was in the EU 10 years ago, EU legislations were carried over to English law after “Brexit” and the fact that they were good enough to be bought by Google also demonstrates that European companies can be seen as a threat. > A lot of them work for subsidiaries of American companies. And a lot of them don’t. I had my worked for a single American subsidiary in my 20 years of experience in Europe. Same is true for a lot of my friends too. I really do get fed up with how some Americans believe it’s impossible that any other country could be successful.
- zirgs 3y ago
  Not everyone wants to uproot their life and leave their friends and family behind.
- fxtentacle 3y ago
  European LLM beating OpenAI davinci at NLP: https://www.aleph-alpha.com/luminous-performance-benchmarks https://www.aleph-alpha.com/luminous-performance-benchmarks It'll probably be "good enough" for most industry usecases ;) And you can run it offline and on-prem, which is a big deal to the many companies who DO NOT want their internal data leaking to OpenAI. And the Carrefour AI stuff is hosted on OVH cloud (in France), I believe: https://www.carrefour.com/en/news/artificial-intelligence-optimise-carrefours-supply-chain https://www.carrefour.com/en/news/artificial-intelligence-op... OVH has roughly 15% of the revenue that Google Cloud makes in Europe. So I'd put them at a similar size to Oracle Cloud, but clearly larger than DigitalOcean.
l5870uoo9y 3y ago
I haven't spoken to a single technical person in Europe who doesn't despise the GDPR. It is only praised by the Eurocrats themselves or the whole pack of NGOs/think tanks who lives off EU funding. As a guy with a startup I naturally fear this will be as counterproductive as GDPR or the decades of lawsuits against various foreign tech corporations. The fundamental problem is however with the political class.
- sensanaty 3y ago
  > I haven't spoken to a single technical person in Europe who doesn't despise the GDPR Then I suspect you haven't spoken to anyone technical. Every single person in my company on the dev team (myself included) is extremely pro GDPR, not the least because it provides us safety from leeches that would try to impose some horrid user-violating tracking in the app we make. The greedy suit wants us to track every millimeter of the user's mouse on the page? Nope, thanks, better luck next time! > As a guy with a startup... If your startup can't exist without hoovering infinite user data in perpetuity, then your startup shouldn't exist.
  - snordgren 3y ago
    The problem is that many European startups don't exist because potential founders don't want to have to deal with GDPR when they could focus on building a good product first. And yes, tracking what users focus on is very relevant to building a good product. But that kind of entrepreneurial mindset is largely absent in Europe - my guess is most Europeans with such a mindset eventually go to America, whether they were born in 1850 or 1985.
    - sensanaty 3y ago
      > ...when they could focus on building a good product first So not tracking every single molecule of detail about your users is incompatible with building a good product? If being entrepreneurial means that I have to violate my user's privacy then I'd rather not be an entrepreneur, thanks. And again, if your business can't survive without being invasive and malicious to your users, then your business shouldn't exist. You won't see me or anyone else reasonable weeping about the dissolution of such entities, either.

nforgerit 3y ago

(I love the EU, I really do. That much, that I really care about its ability for innovation.) As a European software engineer I'm calling BS on your statement, Mr Manager. EU legislation might not aim to stifle innovation (in contrast, they're always talking about a "level playing field") but their imprecise and vague regulation texts are like a loose cannon for whatever innovative business might come up if you have your first hire to be "the lawyer who gives legal advice in context of EU regulation". Now, those people will just quietly move away to find a new home-market for scaling up and then eventually selling to EU countries. This is not "lagging behind" but an economical fiasco since the same laws only help local oligopolies of gatekeeper enterprises and (the ones they initially aimed for) Big Tech who can afford licenses and lawyers. Two little examples (but there's more): - What about the safe harbor thing? It's all a grey area now after court rulings decided that pretty much all US-EU IT biz is at least partially violating the EU regulations. - We're now all happily clicking cookie banners and startups are getting sued by third-rate law firms. Some things were good with GDPR but did it help with Big Tech's (and meanwhile Tiktok's) way of collecting data? Nope.

deely3 3y ago
I understand and agree to your arguments, but I don't want to change EU. > like a loose cannon for whatever innovative business might come up if you have your first hire to be "the lawyer who gives legal advice in context of EU regulation". But loose cannon is better than no cannon. Also, how about not doing what is forbidden? You don't need to show cookie banner if you don't store cookies that helps to follow your users. You don't need to follow PII storing rules if you don't store PII. Look, yes this rules are hard to follow sometimes but thats exactly why we have it. I don't want to every company in the world to store my info without my consent and without possibility to delete it. Sorry, but companies should deal with it.
sensanaty 3y ago
You could always just not harvest infinite amounts of user data that you don't need? The company I work for doesn't even have a consent banner since we don't store anything that isn't vital to the service, and even then it's barely anything. If companies are so incapable of not harvesting data en-masse then they deserve to be sued out of existence and shut down for their shenanigans.

anothernewdude 3y ago

I'm so glad the EU exist to protect people from web fonts.

sensanaty 3y ago
It sure would be nice if we could indeed use fonts without it being a vector for invasively tracking people en-masse, alas greedy shareholders view things differently.
csunbird 3y ago
There is literally no need for google to know which sites I visit all over the web all the time, just because the web site owners were too lazy to host their own fonts.

ekidd 3y ago

> EU legislation doesn’t stifle innovation. It stifles abuse of technology. Honestly, my biggest complaints with EU software legislation are: 1. It doesn't scale down to tiny non-commercial or barely-commercial activities. 2. It theoretically proposes penalties on private people outside the EU (even though they are rarely imposed?). 3. I have no vote or representation. For example, I used to provide tiny, free web apps that performed useful tasks. These often had fewer than 100 users, and they kept no information that wasn't strictly necessary. But if you emailed me about them, I might not respond within a month, especially if I was traveling or something. The GDPR requires 30-day turnarounds for lots of stuff. I shut down all of these apps, because some of my users might have been in the EU? And I won't be releasing any more free web tools. It's all CLI now. Similarly, I host a small web forum in the US, and we have some EU users. We keep no information beyond that required to run a web forum. If you ask the moderators to delete all your posts on August 1st, well, I hope someone took their computer on vacation. Similarly, I maintain a couple of open source projects. Many of these are paid for by an employer, who makes the code available for free. In the past, I have occasionally added a feature to one of my projects as a consulting project for someone. But reading through https://www.techradar.com/pro/the-eus-product-liability-directive-could-kill-open-source https://www.techradar.com/pro/the-eus-product-liability-dire..., I see that I am now likely to have personal liability for my open source projects, towards people who have never paid me a cent. Sure, I do have liability towards the rare consulting customer who actually paid for something, which is carefully negotiated in our contract. But in the future, some random EU company I've never heard of will likely be able to use my software, pay me nothing, and make me liable? It's very hard to tell with current drafts. And I have at least one open source AI tool on GitHub, that's of no use to anyone. But I suppose I'll need to read the EU AI laws now, too. Sometimes I just want to build useful stuff (web apps, forums, open source tools) and give it away for free. But if I have any European users, I may get entangled in complex European laws. Honestly, there's zero upside for me supporting EU users, because I'm not benefiting from them, and I keep having to read hundreds of pages of incredibly vague laws in multiple languages. If the Product Liability Directive goes through in its current form, and if GitHub offers me a way to block EU downloads, I'll probably use it. I am not interested in supporting or encouraging commerical EU users who have never paid me anything.

3y ago

flagrant_taco 3y ago

While I agree with your main point that this type of legislation doesn't necessarily stifle innovation, the line of what is considered abuse is subjective. Legislation like this is effectively either the EU attempting to force their opinion of what is an acceptable use of tech on the rest of the world, or the EU committing to potentially fall behind on moral grounds. I actually greatly respect the second scenario if that's the situation, we'd all be better off if people chose their morals over profit and fear.

fnordpiglet 3y ago

Depending on the outcome I’ll call BS on your BS. Open source AI friendly regulation would certainly support your statement, while regulatory moat for megacorps with sophisticated compliance divisions would entirely obviate your statement. There is something though that’s chilling EU tech investment, whether it’s regulation or tech, regulation of funding vehicles, or some other artifact. All factors align to a vibrant EU tech sector, yet it’s just not present. This reflects in ludicrously low salaries, poor career prospects, and a lack of clout - better than trying to force tech standards via imperfect mechanisms like regulation the EU should be setting standards by virtue of its technical ability to create excellent tech standards and platforms. The best EU tech talent I know is working at some American company, be it megacorps like Google or Amazon, JPMC, or smaller tech companies like Datadog, etc. I don’t gloat in this - I wish all the world were firing on all cylinders in tech, space, science, engineering innovation. That’s the only way out of our broken way of doing things that’s killing our planet and our society.