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Call me new-fashioned, but this crap should not be legal. I get cars, I get people heating their homes with wood, I get burning coal for electricity, but this i

Call me new-fashioned, but this crap should not be legal. I get cars, I get people heating their homes with wood, I get burning coal for electricity, but this is just a middle finger to the environment and a huge waste of energy (approximately 1.8 GWh).

HeckFeck 3y ago
If the locals wish to spend their resources in this way, that's for them to decide, not you. It isn't a waste if it is valued by someone who pays for it.
- thepaulmcbride 3y ago
  Rarely are all of the things burnt paid for. A lot of the pallets etc are stolen from local businesses.
  - HeckFeck 3y ago
    I think someone would notice if several thousand pallets were being stolen from his business.
    - thombat 3y ago
      Given the long history of sectarian violence a business may notice but choose not to make a fuss. Especially a Catholic-owned business.
    - thepaulmcbride 3y ago
      They definitely notice. https://belfastmedia.com/mystery-surrounds-source-of-thousands-of-pallets-and-pounds-going-up-in-smoke https://belfastmedia.com/mystery-surrounds-source-of-thousan... The red and blue pallets specifically are owned by just two companies. The pine pallets are stolen from local shopping centres etc.
      - HeckFeck 3y ago
        There isn’t any evidence in this article, just hearsay. I think if someone was driving a van out of a yard with dozens of palettes it would be noticed. And for them being red and blue, I think it is obvious why those colours would be purchased.
        aardshark 3y ago
        17000 pallets are worth much more than £20,000, which apparently covers all the associated cost of the bonfire. They sure didn't buy all those pallets.
        HeckFeck 3y ago
        If that’s really the case then that’s extremely regrettable. Again I’d need hard evidence to be convinced, but I’m not going to except theft even for a cultural occasion. They should be raising the money voluntarily and collecting donations without coercion. Otherwise they aren’t helping their cause.
      - thepaulmcbride 3y ago
        Another example from a few years back. https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/3000-bonfire-pallets-stolen-in-raid-on-belfast-council-depot/35856827.html https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/3000-... You can believe that an event mostly orchestrated by paramilitary gangs is above board if you wish, but I know first hand that many of these palettes are stolen.
    - Dylan1312 3y ago
      Important context here is that many of these are in areas where businesses are still paying protection money to the paramilitary organisiations organising the bonfire.
- Toutouxc 3y ago
  It’s a good thing then that they also completely cover the externalities and burn it in an airtight dome. Wait, they don’t? So maybe it does concern me after all.
  - HeckFeck 3y ago
    I'd be interested to hear how this suggestion of yours might scale. I can think of many other things that affect the atmosphere a thousandfold compared to a few bonfires, likely including activities you might enjoy and I might not.
    - Toutouxc 3y ago
      And quite a lot of them are getting regulated or have been regulated for decades, how does government regulation not scale? There are countries, times and places where you can’t light a bonfire anymore. There are things you are not allowed to burn at all. There are things you are not allowed to spill, things you aren’t allowed to transport, things you aren’t allowed to discard without permission. Honest question, what is the thing that affects the atmosphere that much and we can’t regulate it?
      - defrost 3y ago
        > Honest question, what is the thing that affects the atmosphere that much and we can’t regulate it? CO2 sourced from fossil fuels that have been buried for tens of millions of years all being dragged up in the one century. As opposed to C02 from the surface vegetation cycle of absorption and release; by say, growing pine trees, making pallets, burning pallets, growing more trees.
        Toutouxc 3y ago
        While I personally thing we should do much more than we’re currently doing, fossil fuels have been a hot topic for at least the last decade and the push towards renewables and possibly nuclear is either underway or being seriously discussed pretty much everywhere. So that’s clearly thing we’re technically able to regulate, despite the pushback from big oil. And you’re right that most of the pallets were made of wood grown for the purpose, and burning them is essentially carbon neutral, but the whole industry requires a steady input of fossil fuels for the machines and electricity for the services, which shifts the whole thing firmly into “waste of energy” territory again.
Xylakant 3y ago
How many people drive their car for leisure? Motorsports? Riding motorcycles for fun? Using high powered GPUs for gaming? That’s all just burning energy for fun. In your words, a middle finger to the environment. Should that all be forbidden?
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  > How many people drive their car for leisure? Probably much fewer than in generations past. There is frequent reportage that in the USA, the car is no longer so regarded as a symbol of personal freedom. And in many countries, petrol is expensive and heavily taxed with some effect on discouraging usage.
- Toutouxc 3y ago
  Definitely not forbidden, just heavily taxed or conducted in a way that doesn’t [disproportionately] harm the environment. If your gaming rig runs off renewables and you ride an electric motorcycle, be my guest. I mean, I don’t want to be a dick, I don’t care if someone drives a few kilometers more on their way from work because it’s nicer there, after all, there ARE private yachts that burn the same amount of fuel every twenty meters, and I don’t think that a few rally stages or a few laps around Spa is what finally kills the planet, but there’s something about setting 400 tons of wood on fire for “big flamey thing nice” that pisses me off way more than people riding motorcycles. Way more of that middle finger energy.
  - Xylakant 3y ago
    I agree that the price of fuel should be increased to the point where it covers externalities. This could be treated the same. But you specifically asked for “not legal”.
  - sgt 3y ago
    Please don't bring motorcycles into this. The environmental impact is negligible compared to cars. The problem is not that if their pollution. If there's an issue, rather bring up loud Harleys and so on that contribute to noise in city streets and such.
bluescrn 3y ago
Until private jets and superyachts are banned, it seems wrong to complain about this. It’s very wasteful, but I’m assuming it’ll ‘entertain’ a large number of people, at least. And it’s nothing compared to the waste and environmental damage of warfare, another global problem we still face.
0xbadc0de5 3y ago
fwiw - wood burning does not contribute to net CO2 increase because wood is part of the closed loop cycle, unlike fossil fuels such as coal or oil. It's not terribly efficient, and seems a bit wasteful, but from an environmental perspective, that wood is net zero.

HeckFeck 3y ago

If the locals wish to spend their resources in this way, that's for them to decide, not you. It isn't a waste if it is valued by someone who pays for it.

thepaulmcbride 3y ago
Rarely are all of the things burnt paid for. A lot of the pallets etc are stolen from local businesses.
- HeckFeck 3y ago
  I think someone would notice if several thousand pallets were being stolen from his business.
  - thombat 3y ago
    Given the long history of sectarian violence a business may notice but choose not to make a fuss. Especially a Catholic-owned business.
  - thepaulmcbride 3y ago
    They definitely notice. https://belfastmedia.com/mystery-surrounds-source-of-thousands-of-pallets-and-pounds-going-up-in-smoke https://belfastmedia.com/mystery-surrounds-source-of-thousan... The red and blue pallets specifically are owned by just two companies. The pine pallets are stolen from local shopping centres etc.
    - HeckFeck 3y ago
      There isn’t any evidence in this article, just hearsay. I think if someone was driving a van out of a yard with dozens of palettes it would be noticed. And for them being red and blue, I think it is obvious why those colours would be purchased.
      - aardshark 3y ago
        17000 pallets are worth much more than £20,000, which apparently covers all the associated cost of the bonfire. They sure didn't buy all those pallets.
        HeckFeck 3y ago
        If that’s really the case then that’s extremely regrettable. Again I’d need hard evidence to be convinced, but I’m not going to except theft even for a cultural occasion. They should be raising the money voluntarily and collecting donations without coercion. Otherwise they aren’t helping their cause.
    - thepaulmcbride 3y ago
      Another example from a few years back. https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/3000-bonfire-pallets-stolen-in-raid-on-belfast-council-depot/35856827.html https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/3000-... You can believe that an event mostly orchestrated by paramilitary gangs is above board if you wish, but I know first hand that many of these palettes are stolen.
  - Dylan1312 3y ago
    Important context here is that many of these are in areas where businesses are still paying protection money to the paramilitary organisiations organising the bonfire.
Toutouxc 3y ago
It’s a good thing then that they also completely cover the externalities and burn it in an airtight dome. Wait, they don’t? So maybe it does concern me after all.
- HeckFeck 3y ago
  I'd be interested to hear how this suggestion of yours might scale. I can think of many other things that affect the atmosphere a thousandfold compared to a few bonfires, likely including activities you might enjoy and I might not.
  - Toutouxc 3y ago
    And quite a lot of them are getting regulated or have been regulated for decades, how does government regulation not scale? There are countries, times and places where you can’t light a bonfire anymore. There are things you are not allowed to burn at all. There are things you are not allowed to spill, things you aren’t allowed to transport, things you aren’t allowed to discard without permission. Honest question, what is the thing that affects the atmosphere that much and we can’t regulate it?
    - defrost 3y ago
      > Honest question, what is the thing that affects the atmosphere that much and we can’t regulate it? CO2 sourced from fossil fuels that have been buried for tens of millions of years all being dragged up in the one century. As opposed to C02 from the surface vegetation cycle of absorption and release; by say, growing pine trees, making pallets, burning pallets, growing more trees.
      - Toutouxc 3y ago
        While I personally thing we should do much more than we’re currently doing, fossil fuels have been a hot topic for at least the last decade and the push towards renewables and possibly nuclear is either underway or being seriously discussed pretty much everywhere. So that’s clearly thing we’re technically able to regulate, despite the pushback from big oil. And you’re right that most of the pallets were made of wood grown for the purpose, and burning them is essentially carbon neutral, but the whole industry requires a steady input of fossil fuels for the machines and electricity for the services, which shifts the whole thing firmly into “waste of energy” territory again.

Xylakant 3y ago

How many people drive their car for leisure? Motorsports? Riding motorcycles for fun? Using high powered GPUs for gaming? That’s all just burning energy for fun. In your words, a middle finger to the environment. Should that all be forbidden?

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
> How many people drive their car for leisure? Probably much fewer than in generations past. There is frequent reportage that in the USA, the car is no longer so regarded as a symbol of personal freedom. And in many countries, petrol is expensive and heavily taxed with some effect on discouraging usage.
Toutouxc 3y ago
Definitely not forbidden, just heavily taxed or conducted in a way that doesn’t [disproportionately] harm the environment. If your gaming rig runs off renewables and you ride an electric motorcycle, be my guest. I mean, I don’t want to be a dick, I don’t care if someone drives a few kilometers more on their way from work because it’s nicer there, after all, there ARE private yachts that burn the same amount of fuel every twenty meters, and I don’t think that a few rally stages or a few laps around Spa is what finally kills the planet, but there’s something about setting 400 tons of wood on fire for “big flamey thing nice” that pisses me off way more than people riding motorcycles. Way more of that middle finger energy.
- Xylakant 3y ago
  I agree that the price of fuel should be increased to the point where it covers externalities. This could be treated the same. But you specifically asked for “not legal”.
- sgt 3y ago
  Please don't bring motorcycles into this. The environmental impact is negligible compared to cars. The problem is not that if their pollution. If there's an issue, rather bring up loud Harleys and so on that contribute to noise in city streets and such.

bluescrn 3y ago

Until private jets and superyachts are banned, it seems wrong to complain about this. It’s very wasteful, but I’m assuming it’ll ‘entertain’ a large number of people, at least. And it’s nothing compared to the waste and environmental damage of warfare, another global problem we still face.

0xbadc0de5 3y ago

fwiw - wood burning does not contribute to net CO2 increase because wood is part of the closed loop cycle, unlike fossil fuels such as coal or oil. It's not terribly efficient, and seems a bit wasteful, but from an environmental perspective, that wood is net zero.