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Yawn. So maybe we'll have a connection to Spokane in another 80 years and a connection to the Tri-Cities by 2123. Let me know when it gets to my house. I know

Yawn. So maybe we'll have a connection to Spokane in another 80 years and a connection to the Tri-Cities by 2123. Let me know when it gets to my house. I know perhaps I shouldn't be this negative, but... let's use Germany as an example, as it is roughly comparable to Washington and Oregon. Its residents now have a 49 Euro ticket anywhere in the country, useable on multiple forms of transit. We don't even have buses, trains, etc connecting our major cities. Don't even get me started on other social issues like health care, child care, etc. And as long as Eastern Washington continues to send Republicans only to Olympia, ain't a damn thing going to change for us over here. At least we are finally getting some decent internet - decades after most cities in Europe had comparably fast / cheap internet. Maybe someday we'll have more than one functioning mobile provider.

Exoristos 3y ago
They probably don't suffer from as much graft as we here in the U.S.
PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
Germany: population: 84,270,625 area: 357,592 km^2 density: 232/km^2 WA: population: 7,785,786 area: 184,827 km^2 density: 39.6/km^2 In almost no way are they comparable. 1/10th the population, 1/2 the area, 1/8th the density.
- genocidicbunny 3y ago
  I do want to point out that unlike Germany, where the population centers are relatively spread out over the area, in WA and OR, the vast majority of the population lives in a fairly narrow band largely following I5. The density of the Portland - Seattle - Vancouver corridor is a little less dire. Eastern WA and OR are relatively sparsely populated, so HSR to those areas is almost a non-starter.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    Yeah fine, I fully believe in the Vancouver->Vancouver (cough) train line. The justification for it, however, is not "WA is just like Germany". First of all, it's gone to be a relatively single-line system, paralleling I-5, which is quite unlike Germany, Second, even with the full west-of-cascades population, you're still not even remotely close to the population of Germany. You not even really that close to the population along any of the busiest lines within Germany,.
    - genocidicbunny 3y ago
      > The justification for it, however, is not "WA is just like Germany". Of course not, they're not the same. But we are still talking about a region of about 8-10 million people. It's also a region that has grown by 2 or so million people in a decade. Washington alone has had a pretty steady 14-20% growth per decade since the 60's. Oregon is fairly close in its decadal growth as well. So by the 2030's we might be talking more like 12-13 million people in the region. That's plenty sufficient density to start investigating if an HSR is economically feasible and advisable. (Edit: Just for self elucidation, I looked at the number of people that live in the Hamburg - Frankfurt corridor, since that's about the same distance as Portland to Vancouver, BC. Just going off the 'megaregions' that are crossed, its about 20 or so million, give or take a couple. That's only 2x the density of the cascadia region. Berlin - Essen also seems to be about the same distance, and also about 20 million people.) > Yeah fine, I fully believe in the Vancouver->Vancouver (cough) train line. At that point, just extend it. Put a bridge over the river and have a train terminal somewhere near PDX. The further continuation into Salem and Eugene is a little iffy, that I will concede, but Vancouver WA to Portland is practically spitting distance.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
        Sure I mostly agree. And the (cough) after V->V was a silly way for me to say "I mean PDX, of course"). However, I will also note that factors are 2 are far larger than the ones that often make or break social or economic plans. So saying "that's only 2x the density of Cascadia" is not necessarily very encouraging.
- xboxnolifes 3y ago
  State population density simply doesn't matter. City population and distance between cities matters. Nobody realistically expects train lines to enable transportation to every square mile of the state.
  - Gibbon1 3y ago
    You are correct. Most of Washington state is empty. Few people live in the Cascades or the eastern plains. Most of the population of Washington and Portland Metro live inside a long rectangle with an area of 10-15000 square miles. Call it 400 people per square mile. Or probably 15000 people per mile of track which likely is a better number.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    Well, Germany sort of does ....
    - bluGill 3y ago
      Germany doesn't have much HSR either. They have some, but they are mostly running slower trains to reach all those small towns.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
        By that sort of standard, nowhere has "much HSR". Japan certainly doesn't run the Shinkansen to every little town and village. There are plenty of 200mph+ lines all across Germany to count as "solid HSR connections", even the last 5-20 miles runs slower.
- guitarbill 3y ago
  So it should be easier to find unpopulated, cheap land to build lines on between population centers, yeah?
- poulsbohemian 3y ago
  eye roll I knew there would be some pedantic that would come along with this and I should have self edited to make it clear I was talking about square miles - which is why I included BOTH WA and OR which is especially relevant given that the article dreams about connecting not only WA and OR but also BC. Pop doesn't matter and neither does density for this subject. Every pissant village in Europe has a bus route, street car, or milk run train that will connect you to wider transit options. My only way to get to Seattle is a 12 hour (!!) Greyhound, a 4.5 hour car ride, or a $200 plane ticket.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    I just cycled from Santa Fe to Seattle. I lived in Seattle from 89-97. I know what the state is like. Lots of good reasons to justify train system expansion (even ... explosion), but not "it's just like Germany".
CaliforniaKarl 3y ago
Six years ago, my coworker said he'd never see BART reach Santa Clara County in his lifetime. That changed in either 2017 (with Warm Springs opening) or 2020 (with Milpitas and Berryessa opening). He was surprised, too.
zmgsabst 3y ago
The reason that we don’t have those things is the rabid partisanship and graft, eg you ignoring the Homeless Industrial Complex and Sound Transit being black holes of tax money that deliver negative (homeless) or mediocre (transit) results for huge sums. Obviously a lot of people object to writing checks that are perennially siphoned off by white collar crooks — but yes, the problem is those people from that town. They’re just rubes who don’t understand your obvious greatness and should feel privileged to pay for your graft!
vel0city 3y ago
> We don't even have buses...connecting our major cities. https://us.megabus.com/ https://us.megabus.com/ Sure looks to me like there are busses connecting the major cities of Washington.

Exoristos 3y ago

They probably don't suffer from as much graft as we here in the U.S.

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago

Germany: population: 84,270,625 area: 357,592 km^2 density: 232/km^2 WA: population: 7,785,786 area: 184,827 km^2 density: 39.6/km^2 In almost no way are they comparable. 1/10th the population, 1/2 the area, 1/8th the density.

genocidicbunny 3y ago
I do want to point out that unlike Germany, where the population centers are relatively spread out over the area, in WA and OR, the vast majority of the population lives in a fairly narrow band largely following I5. The density of the Portland - Seattle - Vancouver corridor is a little less dire. Eastern WA and OR are relatively sparsely populated, so HSR to those areas is almost a non-starter.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  Yeah fine, I fully believe in the Vancouver->Vancouver (cough) train line. The justification for it, however, is not "WA is just like Germany". First of all, it's gone to be a relatively single-line system, paralleling I-5, which is quite unlike Germany, Second, even with the full west-of-cascades population, you're still not even remotely close to the population of Germany. You not even really that close to the population along any of the busiest lines within Germany,.
  - genocidicbunny 3y ago
    > The justification for it, however, is not "WA is just like Germany". Of course not, they're not the same. But we are still talking about a region of about 8-10 million people. It's also a region that has grown by 2 or so million people in a decade. Washington alone has had a pretty steady 14-20% growth per decade since the 60's. Oregon is fairly close in its decadal growth as well. So by the 2030's we might be talking more like 12-13 million people in the region. That's plenty sufficient density to start investigating if an HSR is economically feasible and advisable. (Edit: Just for self elucidation, I looked at the number of people that live in the Hamburg - Frankfurt corridor, since that's about the same distance as Portland to Vancouver, BC. Just going off the 'megaregions' that are crossed, its about 20 or so million, give or take a couple. That's only 2x the density of the cascadia region. Berlin - Essen also seems to be about the same distance, and also about 20 million people.) > Yeah fine, I fully believe in the Vancouver->Vancouver (cough) train line. At that point, just extend it. Put a bridge over the river and have a train terminal somewhere near PDX. The further continuation into Salem and Eugene is a little iffy, that I will concede, but Vancouver WA to Portland is practically spitting distance.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      Sure I mostly agree. And the (cough) after V->V was a silly way for me to say "I mean PDX, of course"). However, I will also note that factors are 2 are far larger than the ones that often make or break social or economic plans. So saying "that's only 2x the density of Cascadia" is not necessarily very encouraging.
xboxnolifes 3y ago
State population density simply doesn't matter. City population and distance between cities matters. Nobody realistically expects train lines to enable transportation to every square mile of the state.
- Gibbon1 3y ago
  You are correct. Most of Washington state is empty. Few people live in the Cascades or the eastern plains. Most of the population of Washington and Portland Metro live inside a long rectangle with an area of 10-15000 square miles. Call it 400 people per square mile. Or probably 15000 people per mile of track which likely is a better number.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  Well, Germany sort of does ....
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Germany doesn't have much HSR either. They have some, but they are mostly running slower trains to reach all those small towns.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      By that sort of standard, nowhere has "much HSR". Japan certainly doesn't run the Shinkansen to every little town and village. There are plenty of 200mph+ lines all across Germany to count as "solid HSR connections", even the last 5-20 miles runs slower.
guitarbill 3y ago
So it should be easier to find unpopulated, cheap land to build lines on between population centers, yeah?
poulsbohemian 3y ago
eye roll I knew there would be some pedantic that would come along with this and I should have self edited to make it clear I was talking about square miles - which is why I included BOTH WA and OR which is especially relevant given that the article dreams about connecting not only WA and OR but also BC. Pop doesn't matter and neither does density for this subject. Every pissant village in Europe has a bus route, street car, or milk run train that will connect you to wider transit options. My only way to get to Seattle is a 12 hour (!!) Greyhound, a 4.5 hour car ride, or a $200 plane ticket.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  I just cycled from Santa Fe to Seattle. I lived in Seattle from 89-97. I know what the state is like. Lots of good reasons to justify train system expansion (even ... explosion), but not "it's just like Germany".

CaliforniaKarl 3y ago

Six years ago, my coworker said he'd never see BART reach Santa Clara County in his lifetime. That changed in either 2017 (with Warm Springs opening) or 2020 (with Milpitas and Berryessa opening). He was surprised, too.

zmgsabst 3y ago

The reason that we don’t have those things is the rabid partisanship and graft, eg you ignoring the Homeless Industrial Complex and Sound Transit being black holes of tax money that deliver negative (homeless) or mediocre (transit) results for huge sums. Obviously a lot of people object to writing checks that are perennially siphoned off by white collar crooks — but yes, the problem is those people from that town. They’re just rubes who don’t understand your obvious greatness and should feel privileged to pay for your graft!

vel0city 3y ago

> We don't even have buses...connecting our major cities. https://us.megabus.com/ https://us.megabus.com/ Sure looks to me like there are busses connecting the major cities of Washington.