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Chromium Community Leader Calls WEI Critics “Bullies and Criminals”

35 points by LikelyABurner 3y ago

LexiMax 3y ago
The full quote: > Attacks and doxing make me personally MORE likely to support stronger safety features in chromium, as such acts increase my suspicion that there is significant intimidation from criminals who are afraid this feature will disrupt their illegal and/or unethical businesses, and I don't give in to criminals or bullies.
bradrn 3y ago
From the same person, further down in the thread: > It's been pointed out to me that my wording could be taken to suggest that I think folks who oppose WEI are criminals. That was absolutely not my intent and I apologize for not being more careful in my wording. I'm also the kind of person who likes to run rooted devices (used to compile my own NetBSD kernel from scratch weekly), custom browser builds, etc. and so I sympathize heavily with that use case myself and don't see how I could support a proposal which seriously risked the outcome you describe - users of such devices / niche browsers being locked out of important parts ot the web. AFAIK there is no serious debate as to whether such an outcome would be acceptable for the web (it's not), the debate is whether this proposal could possibly achieve it's aims without causing such an outcome. There's been lots of strong words saying it's impossible to reduce fraud risk without threatening the openness of the web and perhaps that's right, but I, for one, am always willing to be shown that something I thought was impossible was in fact doable with sufficient ingenuity and care. If I've learned anything from my tiny forays into the W3C anti-fraud community group it's that there's a lot of complexity and expertise in this space of which I know almost nothing, so I'm open to new ideas. I'm thrilled to see anti-fraud experts actually collaborating openly and publicly for, perhaps, the first time in Internet history.
jimbob45 3y ago
Anyone have the pre-edited version? It’s showing up in my Ctrl-F but I don’t see it on the page.
- colanderman 3y ago
  Direct link: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/Ux5h_kGO22g/m/0doc7unxAQAJ https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/Ux5h_...
tempodox 3y ago
Link to the passage in question: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/Ux5h_kGO22g/m/0doc7unxAQAJ https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/Ux5h_... It mentions threats of physical violence, which gives a different context than what the post's title suggests.
- politelemon 3y ago
  You are right... Flagging this because it's unnecessary ragebait and op is deliberately trying to fuel the flames. This is in extremely poor taste and malicious too.
pierat 3y ago
Yet another reason to support and use Firefox and forks.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
wbobeirne 3y ago
I am very anti WEI but I can still have sympathy for anyone who is doxxed or has death threats sent to them. It's a bad proposal and it should be argued on its merits and resisted in its implementation. But even in HN threads I saw commentary on how it wasn't enough to just oppose this civilly, and that people needed to do more. I don't like the idea of people thinking that actions that threaten someone's physical safety is fair game, just because it's a terrible feature.
- LightHugger 3y ago
  It's not fair game to go after random employees but this change is an extremely severe attack on all human freedom on the internet. If you are surprised by that kind of response when it's this severe, and it's an authoritarian government making the change (google, large enough corporations are governments) it should not be surprising at all.
bsimpson 3y ago
One of my closest friends is working on this proposal. The personal safety fears are unfortunately real, which is absurd. However you feel about the internet, people shouldn't be physically threatened for having ideas about how to try to make it better. On an unrelated but otherwise relevant note: he's also one of the most thoughtful and intelligent people I know, who has spent the majority of his career becoming a domain expert in internet abuse. He's also a true hacker and tinkerer who fully embodies the same free-as-in-freedom ethos that a lot of the dissenters do. I haven't had a chance to talk to him about this proposal yet, but I'm really curious to hear his take. I'm sure it's thoughtful, nuanced, and well-intentioned. He'll be honest about what criticism is valid and what needs more work. He's the kind of person you want working on something this sensitive. Those of you piling on about how this is Google being boldly evil or the death of the internet or whatever, kindly shut the fuck up. These are well-intentioned people presenting ideas to make the web a better place for everyone. (Abuse is unfortunately a very real thing that has real consequences; see also, global politics in the last decade.) Your hyperbole is putting real people in danger, and that is not okay.
- goku12 3y ago
  I sincerely hope that your friends and all other people involved in WEI, and their families remain safe from harm and harassment. I'm completely opposed to any sort of violence in this matter. Having read WEI in the current form (several times), I'm convinced that it presents a serious threat to the open web. It's no hyperbole and it doesn't take a genius to understand it. (One of its creators concurred too). The above two are not mutually exclusive. And it's possible to oppose a bad idea without resorting to violence. Please stop using some people's bad behavior to attack the entire opposition. That's a bad faith argument.
- klipklop 3y ago
  > Those of you piling on about how this is Google being boldly evil or the death of the internet or whatever, kindly shut the fuck up. These are well-intentioned people… Note, nobody should harass anybody… People get pretty bent out of shape when a company with a history of unethical behavior that constantly walks back promises suggest something like this. If your friend was well intentioned there are a lot of things they can go work on that don’t include drafting proposals that will one day potentially end the open internet as we know it today. We don’t need something like WEI. Full stop.
goku12 3y ago
Please reconsider the headline. They aren't talking about regular critics. They are talking about doxxing and death threats. WEI is bad, but its proponents definitely don't deserve this. We aren't going to win the open web with violence and threats. I also implore the regular critics to consider that WEI is a symptom of a systemic problem. If these individuals don't do it, someone else will. Attacking them personally diverts our attention from the underlying issue.
DueDilligence 3y ago
[dead]

35 points by LikelyABurner 3y ago

The full quote: > Attacks and doxing make me personally MORE likely to support stronger safety features in chromium, as such acts increase my suspicion that there is significant intimidation from criminals who are afraid this feature will disrupt their illegal and/or unethical businesses, and I don't give in to criminals or bullies.

bradrn 3y ago

From the same person, further down in the thread: > It's been pointed out to me that my wording could be taken to suggest that I think folks who oppose WEI are criminals. That was absolutely not my intent and I apologize for not being more careful in my wording. I'm also the kind of person who likes to run rooted devices (used to compile my own NetBSD kernel from scratch weekly), custom browser builds, etc. and so I sympathize heavily with that use case myself and don't see how I could support a proposal which seriously risked the outcome you describe - users of such devices / niche browsers being locked out of important parts ot the web. AFAIK there is no serious debate as to whether such an outcome would be acceptable for the web (it's not), the debate is whether this proposal could possibly achieve it's aims without causing such an outcome. There's been lots of strong words saying it's impossible to reduce fraud risk without threatening the openness of the web and perhaps that's right, but I, for one, am always willing to be shown that something I thought was impossible was in fact doable with sufficient ingenuity and care. If I've learned anything from my tiny forays into the W3C anti-fraud community group it's that there's a lot of complexity and expertise in this space of which I know almost nothing, so I'm open to new ideas. I'm thrilled to see anti-fraud experts actually collaborating openly and publicly for, perhaps, the first time in Internet history.

jimbob45 3y ago

Anyone have the pre-edited version? It’s showing up in my Ctrl-F but I don’t see it on the page.

colanderman 3y ago
Direct link: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/Ux5h_kGO22g/m/0doc7unxAQAJ https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/Ux5h_...

tempodox 3y ago

Link to the passage in question: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/Ux5h_kGO22g/m/0doc7unxAQAJ https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/Ux5h_... It mentions threats of physical violence, which gives a different context than what the post's title suggests.

politelemon 3y ago
You are right... Flagging this because it's unnecessary ragebait and op is deliberately trying to fuel the flames. This is in extremely poor taste and malicious too.

pierat 3y ago

Yet another reason to support and use Firefox and forks.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

wbobeirne 3y ago

I am very anti WEI but I can still have sympathy for anyone who is doxxed or has death threats sent to them. It's a bad proposal and it should be argued on its merits and resisted in its implementation. But even in HN threads I saw commentary on how it wasn't enough to just oppose this civilly, and that people needed to do more. I don't like the idea of people thinking that actions that threaten someone's physical safety is fair game, just because it's a terrible feature.

LightHugger 3y ago
It's not fair game to go after random employees but this change is an extremely severe attack on all human freedom on the internet. If you are surprised by that kind of response when it's this severe, and it's an authoritarian government making the change (google, large enough corporations are governments) it should not be surprising at all.

bsimpson 3y ago

One of my closest friends is working on this proposal. The personal safety fears are unfortunately real, which is absurd. However you feel about the internet, people shouldn't be physically threatened for having ideas about how to try to make it better. On an unrelated but otherwise relevant note: he's also one of the most thoughtful and intelligent people I know, who has spent the majority of his career becoming a domain expert in internet abuse. He's also a true hacker and tinkerer who fully embodies the same free-as-in-freedom ethos that a lot of the dissenters do. I haven't had a chance to talk to him about this proposal yet, but I'm really curious to hear his take. I'm sure it's thoughtful, nuanced, and well-intentioned. He'll be honest about what criticism is valid and what needs more work. He's the kind of person you want working on something this sensitive. Those of you piling on about how this is Google being boldly evil or the death of the internet or whatever, kindly shut the fuck up. These are well-intentioned people presenting ideas to make the web a better place for everyone. (Abuse is unfortunately a very real thing that has real consequences; see also, global politics in the last decade.) Your hyperbole is putting real people in danger, and that is not okay.

goku12 3y ago
I sincerely hope that your friends and all other people involved in WEI, and their families remain safe from harm and harassment. I'm completely opposed to any sort of violence in this matter. Having read WEI in the current form (several times), I'm convinced that it presents a serious threat to the open web. It's no hyperbole and it doesn't take a genius to understand it. (One of its creators concurred too). The above two are not mutually exclusive. And it's possible to oppose a bad idea without resorting to violence. Please stop using some people's bad behavior to attack the entire opposition. That's a bad faith argument.
klipklop 3y ago
> Those of you piling on about how this is Google being boldly evil or the death of the internet or whatever, kindly shut the fuck up. These are well-intentioned people… Note, nobody should harass anybody… People get pretty bent out of shape when a company with a history of unethical behavior that constantly walks back promises suggest something like this. If your friend was well intentioned there are a lot of things they can go work on that don’t include drafting proposals that will one day potentially end the open internet as we know it today. We don’t need something like WEI. Full stop.

goku12 3y ago

Please reconsider the headline. They aren't talking about regular critics. They are talking about doxxing and death threats. WEI is bad, but its proponents definitely don't deserve this. We aren't going to win the open web with violence and threats. I also implore the regular critics to consider that WEI is a symptom of a systemic problem. If these individuals don't do it, someone else will. Attacking them personally diverts our attention from the underlying issue.

DueDilligence 3y ago

[dead]