4 ms·

I’m no fan of Java, but in comparison with python, Java’s focus on extreme backwards compatibility and their ability to actually execute on this promise year af

I’m no fan of Java, but in comparison with python, Java’s focus on extreme backwards compatibility and their ability to actually execute on this promise year after year stands in stark relief with how python has handled the same challenges. I have low confidence, despite their claims this won’t be python 4, that this will actually be executed well. Looking forward to having homebrew deliver python@3.25_GIL and python@3.25_no_GIL with each flipping package I install.

qbasic_forever 3y ago
Yep, and you'll have pip3-gil and pip3-nogil binaries because each permutation of python has separate and incompatible site-packages folders and libraries. It could get really ugly.
- kelipso 3y ago
  Lol the correct statement is it will get really ugly. Pretty much no question it will be a bigger mess than 2 to 3 transition. Here's hoping my subfield will move to a different language in the meanwhile because I don't want to deal with this shit again.
  - MarkMarine 3y ago
    All your hopes of GIL free code ruined by a GIL requiring left pad dep buried deep in the dependency tree.
    - baq 3y ago
      Fortunately Python’s package management is so horrible left pad is not a problem.
- TylerE 3y ago
  Is the situation in rust, where the answer is apparently to vendor the world, much better? Don't many of the big rust libraries still depend on nightly, too?
  - DougBTX 3y ago
    The major difference with rust is that the core language has strong backwards compatibility guarantees, and the package manager supports installing multiple versions of transitive dependencies so packages can be updated incrementally.
    - TylerE 3y ago
      Right. GP was complaint about having a gazillion versions of every dependency sitting around to satisfy various whims.
  - School-Cotton 3y ago
    > Don't many of the big rust libraries still depend on nightly, too? No, none of them do, or at least none that I’ve ever seen in 4 years of doing rust full-time.
- yellowapple 3y ago
  Or it could motivate total abandonment of system-level Python installations in favor of per-app virtualenvs or whatever the new hotness is, and we'll finally achieve world peace.
  - JonChesterfield 3y ago
    I can see system level python installs being abandoned. They seem to be getting progressively harder to use over time. I don't see the replacement being virtual env, it'll be a different language ecosystem. Whichever one looks like it has remembered "easy to do simple things in" is a feature.
    - sverhagen 3y ago
      While Python has never been my primary coding language, I've used it extensively for building scripts and tools, but I've pretty much given up on it. The language is so elegant, but the installation of it (with 2~3 compatibility issues being just a small part of that) just became such a turnoff. It's been super frustrating having to search the Internet every time I need to install something Python-related, to then find all sorts of conflicting instructions, bleh. Virtualenv, venv, a different Pip in Ubuntu, and so on. Since there's a lot of references to Java in these discussions: there's "sadly" two ways to do it: Maven and Gradle. That's still one too many, but at least not a new flavor du jour every year, like seemingly with Python. And I'm sure someone will drive by, now, and tell us we have to use xyz, "obviously". But if that's not "obviously" what I find in an Internet search, then the community has apparently not agreed on it consistently in a sustained way.
      - xmcqdpt2 3y ago
        The new official Scala build tool / compiler front end (scala-cli) is amazing, https://scala-cli.virtuslab.org/ https://scala-cli.virtuslab.org/ The thing that really struck me after years of python is how it lets you out dependencies directly in a comment on top of a script and it will download and run with them automatically, without poisoning any system settings. It's so simple!

qbasic_forever 3y ago

Yep, and you'll have pip3-gil and pip3-nogil binaries because each permutation of python has separate and incompatible site-packages folders and libraries. It could get really ugly.

kelipso 3y ago
Lol the correct statement is it will get really ugly. Pretty much no question it will be a bigger mess than 2 to 3 transition. Here's hoping my subfield will move to a different language in the meanwhile because I don't want to deal with this shit again.
- MarkMarine 3y ago
  All your hopes of GIL free code ruined by a GIL requiring left pad dep buried deep in the dependency tree.
  - baq 3y ago
    Fortunately Python’s package management is so horrible left pad is not a problem.
TylerE 3y ago
Is the situation in rust, where the answer is apparently to vendor the world, much better? Don't many of the big rust libraries still depend on nightly, too?
- DougBTX 3y ago
  The major difference with rust is that the core language has strong backwards compatibility guarantees, and the package manager supports installing multiple versions of transitive dependencies so packages can be updated incrementally.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    Right. GP was complaint about having a gazillion versions of every dependency sitting around to satisfy various whims.
- School-Cotton 3y ago
  > Don't many of the big rust libraries still depend on nightly, too? No, none of them do, or at least none that I’ve ever seen in 4 years of doing rust full-time.
yellowapple 3y ago
Or it could motivate total abandonment of system-level Python installations in favor of per-app virtualenvs or whatever the new hotness is, and we'll finally achieve world peace.
- JonChesterfield 3y ago
  I can see system level python installs being abandoned. They seem to be getting progressively harder to use over time. I don't see the replacement being virtual env, it'll be a different language ecosystem. Whichever one looks like it has remembered "easy to do simple things in" is a feature.
  - sverhagen 3y ago
    While Python has never been my primary coding language, I've used it extensively for building scripts and tools, but I've pretty much given up on it. The language is so elegant, but the installation of it (with 2~3 compatibility issues being just a small part of that) just became such a turnoff. It's been super frustrating having to search the Internet every time I need to install something Python-related, to then find all sorts of conflicting instructions, bleh. Virtualenv, venv, a different Pip in Ubuntu, and so on. Since there's a lot of references to Java in these discussions: there's "sadly" two ways to do it: Maven and Gradle. That's still one too many, but at least not a new flavor du jour every year, like seemingly with Python. And I'm sure someone will drive by, now, and tell us we have to use xyz, "obviously". But if that's not "obviously" what I find in an Internet search, then the community has apparently not agreed on it consistently in a sustained way.
    - xmcqdpt2 3y ago
      The new official Scala build tool / compiler front end (scala-cli) is amazing, https://scala-cli.virtuslab.org/ https://scala-cli.virtuslab.org/ The thing that really struck me after years of python is how it lets you out dependencies directly in a comment on top of a script and it will download and run with them automatically, without poisoning any system settings. It's so simple!