3 ms·

I feel, as someone who has observed and participated in HN for years, that the moderation doesn't do much good. I mean, I'm sure that HN would be worse if there

by lapcat 3y ago

I feel, as someone who has observed and participated in HN for years, that the moderation doesn't do much good. I mean, I'm sure that HN would be worse if there was no moderation, but there's simply not enough moderation to go around. One or two people can't handle the sheer volume of, well, shit on here. There's a lot of shit. The HN guidelines are violated multiple times in practically every comment thread. I find myself becoming my worst self on here, whether I want to or not, in reaction to others being their worst selves too. It's difficult to rise above the fray. Dang must have infinite patience, but I don't, and most people don't seem to either. Dang sets an example that few are willing to follow. I also feel that he gives people way too much lenience. It's like, "I see you've violated the guidelines badly multiple times lately. That's not cool. If you don't stop, then I might have to ban you, someday in the future, or maybe not. I'll give you one... hundred more chances." I'm exaggerating here, but only slightly. ;-) I know that some commenters think that HN is great place for intelligent, friendly discussion. I personally don't understand that. It's like we live in different worlds. But I'm certainly not alone in seeing HN as "toxic", something mentioned in the linked article, as well as by people I know elsewhere. I come here for the topics, which are often very interesting to me, yet all too often I come away from HN regretting my participation. Maybe this is just a bad habit that needs breaking. :-)

Infinitesimus 3y ago
Reaching to just this part > I find myself becoming my worst self on here, whether I want to or not, in reaction to others being their worst selves too. It's difficult to rise above the fray. You always have a choice. If you display your worst self on here, you choose to do so. You can opt not to engage with comments that are a negative to the community.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > You always have a choice. If you display your worst self on here, you choose to do so. You can opt not to engage with comments that are a negative to the community. Sigh. I would respectfully ask you to perform some self-reflection about this very reply of yours. I was admitting to a common, natural, human fallibility, and you chose to reply in a way that seemed blameful and condescending. "You always have a choice" is a cliché here in the HN comments. It's not an interesting response.
  - soulofmischief 3y ago
    To be fair, if you thought the parent's response was negative or not up to community standards, you could indeed have just ignored it. You can do the same for this comment. It's a great habit to develop.
    - dredmorbius 3y ago
      Insisting on a last word, or antagonising the already antagonised, tends to go poorly. Even when meant well, how such responses are read is often far harsher than how they are written. Increasingly I'll restrain myself to a simple acknowledgement or thanks. Occasionally an apology if there seems to be offense. (Both on HN and other sites / platforms.)
      - lapcat 3y ago
        > antagonising the already antagonised Yes, this thread painfully exhibits why I said, "all too often I come away from HN regretting my participation." Neither Infinitesimus nor soulofmischief seemed to consider applying the principle "You can opt not to engage" to their own choices and replies, and I feel that the latter's reply was even worse, because it came after I already suggested self-reflection to the former.
        soulofmischief 3y ago
        > Neither Infinitesimus nor soulofmischief seemed to consider applying the principle "You can opt not to engage" to their own choices and replies The key difference is that I don't have a problem engaging, whereas you stated you have a problem engaging, and so I offered a second opinion. It sounds like you didn't want people to engage your comment at all. I frequently opt not to engage when I feel like it, but I'm not restricted to only engaging with comments of which you approve. If you don't want replies, the best option might be just not to post.
        lapcat 3y ago
philwelch 3y ago
> I find myself becoming my worst self on here, whether I want to or not, in reaction to others being their worst selves too. It's difficult to rise above the fray. Dang must have infinite patience, but I don't, and most people don't seem to either. Yeah, I know exactly what you’re talking about. For what it’s worth, after a couple of those stern warnings from Dan I’ve started to just flag and move on when other people are getting shitty. The collapse-entire-thread button is handy too: as soon as I notice someone has started a tedious, tangential political argument I can make the whole thing disappear!
bachmeier 3y ago
> I find myself becoming my worst self on here, whether I want to or not, in reaction to others being their worst selves too. It's difficult to rise above the fray. This is one of the few sites that lets you say what you want to say and not think about it further. If I see something worthy of a response that might turn heated, I add my comment and don't return to the discussion. Other sites use notifications that force you to read responses to your comments. Cuturally, for me, losing my cool is a sign that you've been beaten. I do my best to stay in control all the time - though there are inevitably times that what I'm trying to say doesn't translate into what I type.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > This is one of the few sites that lets you say what you want to say and not think about it further. Not sure if you'll be back to see this, but... how does this approach to comments align with the ideal of intellectual curiosity that HN is supposed to foster? Although HN comments can often be — if I may put it metaphorically — hit and run, like a graffiti wall, is that the ideal? Maybe it is the ideal, and I'm missing the point. :-)
- raincole 3y ago
  I full-heartedly agree. People like to pretend that prolonged back-and-forth discussions are valuable. But at least in my experience most people, especially me, only have one or two points to bring to the table. After that the discussion quickly devolves into nitpicking or bickering.
dredmorbius 3y ago
The comment-collapse and post-hide features are underappreciated. I also get dragged into discussions I find ... less than productive (happened earlier today). Much as I'm consciously aware of these and try not to get into them, there are times when both it's not clear that you have entered into the Fire Swamp until you're well and truly mired in it, and speaking for myself there's quite often a very-difficult-to-shake belief that one can argue or demonstrate one's way out of a situation. Though often I do find some success in collapsing a thread once it's clear, after one or two comments to it, that discussion won't progress. As for moderation, if you do see egregious misconduct, EMAIL THE MODS. They really do read mail, and they do engage. Most of my own emails are over other issues: titles, preferable URLs, and nominations for the 2nd chance queue. But I'll occasionally point out badly-behaving accounts, and have heard back on those virtually always. Dang does give a lot of 2nd chances, especially for well-established accounts. New/green profiles starting off badly, or known sockpuppets, get far more summary justice.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > it's not clear that you have entered into the Fire Swamp until you're well and truly mired in it Yes, exactly! > As for moderation, if you do see egregious misconduct, EMAIL THE MODS. They really do read mail, and they do engage. Well, I'd rather not become an unpaid moderator myself. This is why I said that there's not enough moderation to go around. Another problem with emailing the mods, related to your first quote, is that once you're well and truly mired in the Fire Swamp, your own hands are not clean anymore, and you've probably violated the HN guidelines yourself to some extent. Condescending repliers often bring you down to their level.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    I very rarely email mods concerning my own interactions with others, largely on the basis of what you've said here. But I will do it where I see egregious misconduct in others' threads. As for unpaid moderation ... I've various reasons for misgivings about HN (as I do about virtually all of the Internet these days), but the site's given me value, seems to spill out positive externalities all over the place, and, well, is reasonably well moderated, all told. It's certainly not turned to shit as so much else has, even if it does frequently disappoint in other regards. But when it's good, it is in fact pretty darned good.

by lapcat 3y ago

Infinitesimus 3y ago

Reaching to just this part > I find myself becoming my worst self on here, whether I want to or not, in reaction to others being their worst selves too. It's difficult to rise above the fray. You always have a choice. If you display your worst self on here, you choose to do so. You can opt not to engage with comments that are a negative to the community.

lapcat 3y ago
> You always have a choice. If you display your worst self on here, you choose to do so. You can opt not to engage with comments that are a negative to the community. Sigh. I would respectfully ask you to perform some self-reflection about this very reply of yours. I was admitting to a common, natural, human fallibility, and you chose to reply in a way that seemed blameful and condescending. "You always have a choice" is a cliché here in the HN comments. It's not an interesting response.
- soulofmischief 3y ago
  To be fair, if you thought the parent's response was negative or not up to community standards, you could indeed have just ignored it. You can do the same for this comment. It's a great habit to develop.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Insisting on a last word, or antagonising the already antagonised, tends to go poorly. Even when meant well, how such responses are read is often far harsher than how they are written. Increasingly I'll restrain myself to a simple acknowledgement or thanks. Occasionally an apology if there seems to be offense. (Both on HN and other sites / platforms.)
    - lapcat 3y ago
      > antagonising the already antagonised Yes, this thread painfully exhibits why I said, "all too often I come away from HN regretting my participation." Neither Infinitesimus nor soulofmischief seemed to consider applying the principle "You can opt not to engage" to their own choices and replies, and I feel that the latter's reply was even worse, because it came after I already suggested self-reflection to the former.
      - soulofmischief 3y ago
        > Neither Infinitesimus nor soulofmischief seemed to consider applying the principle "You can opt not to engage" to their own choices and replies The key difference is that I don't have a problem engaging, whereas you stated you have a problem engaging, and so I offered a second opinion. It sounds like you didn't want people to engage your comment at all. I frequently opt not to engage when I feel like it, but I'm not restricted to only engaging with comments of which you approve. If you don't want replies, the best option might be just not to post.
        lapcat 3y ago

philwelch 3y ago

> I find myself becoming my worst self on here, whether I want to or not, in reaction to others being their worst selves too. It's difficult to rise above the fray. Dang must have infinite patience, but I don't, and most people don't seem to either. Yeah, I know exactly what you’re talking about. For what it’s worth, after a couple of those stern warnings from Dan I’ve started to just flag and move on when other people are getting shitty. The collapse-entire-thread button is handy too: as soon as I notice someone has started a tedious, tangential political argument I can make the whole thing disappear!

bachmeier 3y ago

> I find myself becoming my worst self on here, whether I want to or not, in reaction to others being their worst selves too. It's difficult to rise above the fray. This is one of the few sites that lets you say what you want to say and not think about it further. If I see something worthy of a response that might turn heated, I add my comment and don't return to the discussion. Other sites use notifications that force you to read responses to your comments. Cuturally, for me, losing my cool is a sign that you've been beaten. I do my best to stay in control all the time - though there are inevitably times that what I'm trying to say doesn't translate into what I type.

lapcat 3y ago
> This is one of the few sites that lets you say what you want to say and not think about it further. Not sure if you'll be back to see this, but... how does this approach to comments align with the ideal of intellectual curiosity that HN is supposed to foster? Although HN comments can often be — if I may put it metaphorically — hit and run, like a graffiti wall, is that the ideal? Maybe it is the ideal, and I'm missing the point. :-)
raincole 3y ago
I full-heartedly agree. People like to pretend that prolonged back-and-forth discussions are valuable. But at least in my experience most people, especially me, only have one or two points to bring to the table. After that the discussion quickly devolves into nitpicking or bickering.

dredmorbius 3y ago

The comment-collapse and post-hide features are underappreciated. I also get dragged into discussions I find ... less than productive (happened earlier today). Much as I'm consciously aware of these and try not to get into them, there are times when both it's not clear that you have entered into the Fire Swamp until you're well and truly mired in it, and speaking for myself there's quite often a very-difficult-to-shake belief that one can argue or demonstrate one's way out of a situation. Though often I do find some success in collapsing a thread once it's clear, after one or two comments to it, that discussion won't progress. As for moderation, if you do see egregious misconduct, EMAIL THE MODS. They really do read mail, and they do engage. Most of my own emails are over other issues: titles, preferable URLs, and nominations for the 2nd chance queue. But I'll occasionally point out badly-behaving accounts, and have heard back on those virtually always. Dang does give a lot of 2nd chances, especially for well-established accounts. New/green profiles starting off badly, or known sockpuppets, get far more summary justice.

lapcat 3y ago
> it's not clear that you have entered into the Fire Swamp until you're well and truly mired in it Yes, exactly! > As for moderation, if you do see egregious misconduct, EMAIL THE MODS. They really do read mail, and they do engage. Well, I'd rather not become an unpaid moderator myself. This is why I said that there's not enough moderation to go around. Another problem with emailing the mods, related to your first quote, is that once you're well and truly mired in the Fire Swamp, your own hands are not clean anymore, and you've probably violated the HN guidelines yourself to some extent. Condescending repliers often bring you down to their level.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  I very rarely email mods concerning my own interactions with others, largely on the basis of what you've said here. But I will do it where I see egregious misconduct in others' threads. As for unpaid moderation ... I've various reasons for misgivings about HN (as I do about virtually all of the Internet these days), but the site's given me value, seems to spill out positive externalities all over the place, and, well, is reasonably well moderated, all told. It's certainly not turned to shit as so much else has, even if it does frequently disappoint in other regards. But when it's good, it is in fact pretty darned good.