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The way this post is written is so transparently manipulatively. The volume of text spent tone-policing, chiding, and a nice ole ~"well, now I'm really going to

The way this post is written is so transparently manipulatively. The volume of text spent tone-policing, chiding, and a nice ole ~"well, now I'm really going to scorch the earth since you were mean about my idea" to boot. With basically no actual discussion of the specific points that moved the needle, or further clarification of the scope, or what other approaches will be investigated. And instead of that, another admonishment of the audience, with a sort of implication that everyone on the team is too wounded by online discourse to share any more insight. > Bonus points if you also have suggestions or data on how to actually make meaningful progress on the problem of inauthentic traffic in a way that's fully consistent with the openness of the web :-). Some things just aren't consistent, and I don't believe that you know what "the openness of the web" means, or really care :-). > "the problem of inauthentic traffic" also, the way this phrase (Which does not appear in the Explainer a single time) is used and is somehow the most concrete anything in the entire post, makes me think this is PR-ified. >I hope you all have a stress-free weekend Well, this has been stewing for a few days, but I've basically accepting that computing as I knew it for the first 25-ish years of my life is headed for obsolescence. I'm not thrilled, but not stressed I guess.

rbyers 3y ago
> Some things just aren't consistent, and I don't believe that you know what "the openness of the web" means, or really care :-). I certainly could have done a better job trying to convince you of that in that post. Perhaps my follow-up was better? https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/Ux5h_kGO22g/m/leSEYvIIAgAJ https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/Ux5h_... FWIW the whole reason I keep working on the web platform at Google is because it's the place I think I can do the most good for openness on the web. See eg. https://thenewstack.io/browser-vendors-aim-to-heal-developer-pain-with-interop-2022/ https://thenewstack.io/browser-vendors-aim-to-heal-developer..., https://www.chromium.org/blink/platform-predictability/ https://www.chromium.org/blink/platform-predictability/. "The Master Switch" my Tim Wu is my gospell. If I and other chromium leads didn't actually care about openness then you'd be able to tell pretty clearly because Chromium would be closed source, we wouldn't have big programs like wpt.fyi, and we wouldn't bother even trying to talk about this stuff on open mailing lists.
- rolph 3y ago
  Google Tries to Defend Its Web Environment Integrity as Critics Slam It as Dangerous https://techreport.com/news/google-tries-to-defend-its-web-environment-integrity-as-critics-slam-it-as-dangerous/ https://techreport.com/news/google-tries-to-defend-its-web-e...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- drewbug01 3y ago
  > If I and other chromium leads didn't actually care about openness then you'd be able to tell pretty clearly because Chromium would be closed source, we wouldn't have big programs like wpt.fyi, and we wouldn't bother even trying to talk about this stuff on open mailing lists. I do actually believe you care about this. I think your employer once cared; but now they fundamentally do not (as a whole; I'm aware that Googlers are not a monolith). There are a lot of people shouting at you that this isn't what an "open web" means, and that it's directly counter to the "open web." I imagine that's a difficult thing to square: your own feelings about the open web, and this proposal. How do you make them fit? One way, of course, is to label the people shouting as criminals. ;) If you are feeling that tension like I suspect you are, then sit with it for awhile. Really examine your principles and try to decide if this proposal actually lines up with your values. If you find that you cannot actually align this proposal with your principles - then I urge you to do something about it. Kill the proposal from the inside. You'd stand a lot better chance of doing that than I, an outsider, would.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  > If I and other chromium leads didn't actually care about openness then you'd be able to tell pretty clearly because Chromium would be closed source, we wouldn't have big programs like wpt.fyi, and we wouldn't bother even trying to talk about this stuff on open mailing lists. That only helps if anyone believes you'll listen to anything on the mailing lists. Right now it looks like you publish things there so you can claim community input, and then go ahead with whatever you wanted to do in the first place.
  - 3y ago

rbyers 3y ago

> Some things just aren't consistent, and I don't believe that you know what "the openness of the web" means, or really care :-). I certainly could have done a better job trying to convince you of that in that post. Perhaps my follow-up was better? https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/Ux5h_kGO22g/m/leSEYvIIAgAJ https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/Ux5h_... FWIW the whole reason I keep working on the web platform at Google is because it's the place I think I can do the most good for openness on the web. See eg. https://thenewstack.io/browser-vendors-aim-to-heal-developer-pain-with-interop-2022/ https://thenewstack.io/browser-vendors-aim-to-heal-developer..., https://www.chromium.org/blink/platform-predictability/ https://www.chromium.org/blink/platform-predictability/. "The Master Switch" my Tim Wu is my gospell. If I and other chromium leads didn't actually care about openness then you'd be able to tell pretty clearly because Chromium would be closed source, we wouldn't have big programs like wpt.fyi, and we wouldn't bother even trying to talk about this stuff on open mailing lists.

rolph 3y ago
Google Tries to Defend Its Web Environment Integrity as Critics Slam It as Dangerous https://techreport.com/news/google-tries-to-defend-its-web-environment-integrity-as-critics-slam-it-as-dangerous/ https://techreport.com/news/google-tries-to-defend-its-web-e...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
drewbug01 3y ago
> If I and other chromium leads didn't actually care about openness then you'd be able to tell pretty clearly because Chromium would be closed source, we wouldn't have big programs like wpt.fyi, and we wouldn't bother even trying to talk about this stuff on open mailing lists. I do actually believe you care about this. I think your employer once cared; but now they fundamentally do not (as a whole; I'm aware that Googlers are not a monolith). There are a lot of people shouting at you that this isn't what an "open web" means, and that it's directly counter to the "open web." I imagine that's a difficult thing to square: your own feelings about the open web, and this proposal. How do you make them fit? One way, of course, is to label the people shouting as criminals. ;) If you are feeling that tension like I suspect you are, then sit with it for awhile. Really examine your principles and try to decide if this proposal actually lines up with your values. If you find that you cannot actually align this proposal with your principles - then I urge you to do something about it. Kill the proposal from the inside. You'd stand a lot better chance of doing that than I, an outsider, would.
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
> If I and other chromium leads didn't actually care about openness then you'd be able to tell pretty clearly because Chromium would be closed source, we wouldn't have big programs like wpt.fyi, and we wouldn't bother even trying to talk about this stuff on open mailing lists. That only helps if anyone believes you'll listen to anything on the mailing lists. Right now it looks like you publish things there so you can claim community input, and then go ahead with whatever you wanted to do in the first place.
- 3y ago