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Note also the hammering on the "code of conduct". These are basically designed to be weaponized to shut down anything that whoever is in charge doesnt like unde

Note also the hammering on the "code of conduct". These are basically designed to be weaponized to shut down anything that whoever is in charge doesnt like under the guise of "anything else would be creating an unsafe working environment" to quote the google employee.

richbell 3y ago
People describing criticism as behavior that makes things "unsafe" is another common tactic. Your legitimate complaints aren't valid because I don't like your, or someone else's, tone.
- TheSwordsman 3y ago
  I think there are many people who legitimately feel unsafe when they feel uncomfortable, which is an a super unfortunate situation because it makes critical conversations much harder. Even harder when the people delivering critical feedback do so in a poor way. If only humans weren't so complicated.
  - stingraycharles 3y ago
    Those people should not be in charge of decision making, as it often involves defending your decisions and having difficult conversations.
  - keepamovin 3y ago
    When you feel unsafe it doesn’t always mean someone else is wrong. It can mean that, but it doesn’t have to. It may just be an artifact of your own emotional reaction. That’s a nuance which is lost (deliberately sometimes) when the word unsafe or civil or similar are used. And unfortunately, that means these words are being used to censor, to shut down talk, and to control other people. It’s paradoxical, because the language of safety becomes the instruments of abuse that they are (in such misuse) only pretending to be against. It’s really the interpersonal individual version of the “public safety! national security! Therefore, you need to give up your rights” manipulation of the public. And paradoxically it’s actually abusive to the people who are invoking the “I feel unsafe” defense. Because when the nuance is lost (that it doesn’t always mean that somebody else is wrong) then the people invoking that “I feel unsafe” card are effectively surrendering their individual agency to be responsible for their own emotional reactions (and to process, investigate and understand their own emotional reactions), and by surrendering their agency and personal responsibility, they’re actually making themselves more vulnerable and more unsafe. Not to mention, abusing others in the process. One way this abuse occurs, which is very common today, is incorrectly fake blaming other people for your own emotional reactions. If anyone finds themselves in such situations and feel stuck or comfortable, I encourage you to move beyond vague terms, like ‘unsafe’ or ‘uncomfortable’, (which strictly speaking are not actual emotions they’re more like unresolved low resolution gestalt impressions that conceal the underlying emotions and) which in their vagueness are more open to abuse. I encourage you to actually try to figure out what in fact are you feeling and ask you self why you might be feeling that. The basic emotions are: fear, anger, joy and sadness. Start there! You can use more words as you gain more awareness, I guess. The reason I say that is because I believe that that kind of self-knowledge where people are really being honest with themselves, can only create better situations where they’re less likely to try to Weaponize their own emotional confusion as a way to abuse other people. So I think it’s just generally healthy to be fully across where you are at, in a particular moment and to be in touch with what your internal sensors are giving you. if for no other reason, than that higher resolution enables you to contribute your unique specific perspective in a more detailed and constructive and useful way.
    - drewbug01 3y ago
      > I encourage you to actually try to figure out what in fact are you feeling and ask you self why you might be feeling that. The basic emotions are: fear, anger, joy and sadness. Start there! You can use more words as you gain more awareness, I guess. The "Wheel of Emotions" or "Feelings Wheel" is a useful tool in this regard: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/The_Feeling_Wheel.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/The_Feel...
      - keepamovin 3y ago
        Yes, totally! My thinking exactly. Thanks for the link! :)
  - laserdancepony 3y ago
    That's the problem with our overly supportive safe space culture. People who can't handle being in charge get to be in charge. Thanks for that.
- rbyers 3y ago
  Did you see my point later in the thread about moderators like me explicitly approving all the posts which were arguing forcefully (but respectfully) against WEI? I think it's pretty clear we're not shutting down respectful disagreement, only abusive and threatening disagreement.
  - macinjosh 3y ago
    who gets to decide what is respectful? You? Respect the web, lets start there.
    - rbyers 3y ago
      In the case of blink-dev, yeah moderators like me. But AFAIK we didn't block any replies there at all because nobody in that forum was making threats or anything like that. I also haven't seen much of anything on these HN threads which I'd say violates the code of conduct we use on the chromium forums.
      - rolph 3y ago
        you, however have violated HN code of conduct a number of times. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that".

richbell 3y ago

People describing criticism as behavior that makes things "unsafe" is another common tactic. Your legitimate complaints aren't valid because I don't like your, or someone else's, tone.

TheSwordsman 3y ago
I think there are many people who legitimately feel unsafe when they feel uncomfortable, which is an a super unfortunate situation because it makes critical conversations much harder. Even harder when the people delivering critical feedback do so in a poor way. If only humans weren't so complicated.
- stingraycharles 3y ago
  Those people should not be in charge of decision making, as it often involves defending your decisions and having difficult conversations.
- keepamovin 3y ago
  When you feel unsafe it doesn’t always mean someone else is wrong. It can mean that, but it doesn’t have to. It may just be an artifact of your own emotional reaction. That’s a nuance which is lost (deliberately sometimes) when the word unsafe or civil or similar are used. And unfortunately, that means these words are being used to censor, to shut down talk, and to control other people. It’s paradoxical, because the language of safety becomes the instruments of abuse that they are (in such misuse) only pretending to be against. It’s really the interpersonal individual version of the “public safety! national security! Therefore, you need to give up your rights” manipulation of the public. And paradoxically it’s actually abusive to the people who are invoking the “I feel unsafe” defense. Because when the nuance is lost (that it doesn’t always mean that somebody else is wrong) then the people invoking that “I feel unsafe” card are effectively surrendering their individual agency to be responsible for their own emotional reactions (and to process, investigate and understand their own emotional reactions), and by surrendering their agency and personal responsibility, they’re actually making themselves more vulnerable and more unsafe. Not to mention, abusing others in the process. One way this abuse occurs, which is very common today, is incorrectly fake blaming other people for your own emotional reactions. If anyone finds themselves in such situations and feel stuck or comfortable, I encourage you to move beyond vague terms, like ‘unsafe’ or ‘uncomfortable’, (which strictly speaking are not actual emotions they’re more like unresolved low resolution gestalt impressions that conceal the underlying emotions and) which in their vagueness are more open to abuse. I encourage you to actually try to figure out what in fact are you feeling and ask you self why you might be feeling that. The basic emotions are: fear, anger, joy and sadness. Start there! You can use more words as you gain more awareness, I guess. The reason I say that is because I believe that that kind of self-knowledge where people are really being honest with themselves, can only create better situations where they’re less likely to try to Weaponize their own emotional confusion as a way to abuse other people. So I think it’s just generally healthy to be fully across where you are at, in a particular moment and to be in touch with what your internal sensors are giving you. if for no other reason, than that higher resolution enables you to contribute your unique specific perspective in a more detailed and constructive and useful way.
  - drewbug01 3y ago
    > I encourage you to actually try to figure out what in fact are you feeling and ask you self why you might be feeling that. The basic emotions are: fear, anger, joy and sadness. Start there! You can use more words as you gain more awareness, I guess. The "Wheel of Emotions" or "Feelings Wheel" is a useful tool in this regard: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/The_Feeling_Wheel.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/The_Feel...
    - keepamovin 3y ago
      Yes, totally! My thinking exactly. Thanks for the link! :)
- laserdancepony 3y ago
  That's the problem with our overly supportive safe space culture. People who can't handle being in charge get to be in charge. Thanks for that.
rbyers 3y ago
Did you see my point later in the thread about moderators like me explicitly approving all the posts which were arguing forcefully (but respectfully) against WEI? I think it's pretty clear we're not shutting down respectful disagreement, only abusive and threatening disagreement.
- macinjosh 3y ago
  who gets to decide what is respectful? You? Respect the web, lets start there.
  - rbyers 3y ago
    In the case of blink-dev, yeah moderators like me. But AFAIK we didn't block any replies there at all because nobody in that forum was making threats or anything like that. I also haven't seen much of anything on these HN threads which I'd say violates the code of conduct we use on the chromium forums.
    - rolph 3y ago
      you, however have violated HN code of conduct a number of times. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that".