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The police can do legal wiretaps because it is a tremendous help to get the job done. That's the problem with e2e encryption: it makes the police's job much, m

The police can do legal wiretaps because it is a tremendous help to get the job done. That's the problem with e2e encryption: it makes the police's job much, much more difficult. That's the point. People have to realise that there is a real issue which does not have a simple solution.

Silhouette 3y ago
All protections of civil liberties and rights to due process can make the police's job more difficult - if you consider the police's job to be something like "catching bad guys without regard to any collateral damage that might be caused along the way". But in a free society that's not normally the job we want the police to do. Of course the trouble in this case is that we either have private, secure communication or we don't. There is no halfway measure available. So both locking the police out of everything and giving them complete access to everything might be simplistic non-solutions to the real issue but they might also be the only options we have on this one so a least-of-evils argument may have to prevail.
BLKNSLVR 3y ago
I've personal experience of police not doing their job properly. Anything that makes their job more easy will only make them more lazy. Police work should be hard, because they have to navigate the law if they're to prosecute anyone. Lawyers love laziness, it's sloppy and steps all over lines of technicality. Also, the legal right to violate citizens rights should never be 'made easier' by any legislation. To be on the end of state-enabled rights violations pretty much entirely ruins any trust one may have in 'the system'. And that trust seems to be increasingly valuable and decreasingly present amongst the Western populace.
- evandale 3y ago
  I always find it a headscratcher when people advocate for making the violation of civil rights easier. Cops seem perfectly capable of doing it with the tools they have today.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
> That's the problem with e2e encryption: it makes the police's job much, much more difficult. So what? It should be difficult. They should have to literally send a guy to follow and literally spy on you if they want to learn a single bit of information about you. Not push a button and have your entire life revealed on their screens.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  It's nonsensical to claim that the job of the police should be difficult and made to be difficult. The restrictions and controls, which exist, should be an enforced legal framework. If today the police want to wiretap your phone they need a warrant, that's the control and 'difficulty', but then telcos will route your calls to them at the push of a button. Again, the issue with e2e encryption is real and complex.
  - matheusmoreira 3y ago
    It's not "nonsensical" at all. Even with warrants, authorities will abuse their power. I've seen a story here on HN about police submitting literal blank pages to judges and getting the warrants they want. Don't tell me this warrant bullshit stops anything. I refuse to grant them any power whatsoever by using subversive technology like encryption. Their only choice is to increase their tyranny by treating all encryption as proof of guilt, undermining the freedom of everyone, including yours. Will you tolerate the increased tyranny or will you oppose it? That is the question.
  - lijok 3y ago
    The easier the job of the police is, the easier it becomes for them to create a police state. We can argue perfect imaginary world semantics all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that in the real world abuse is rampant and power over others is pursued at great cost. Making the job more difficult for the police costs nothing but money. To argue that we should relax our liberties to make the polices job easier, is to argue that liberty should be erasable by those willing to pay.

Silhouette 3y ago

All protections of civil liberties and rights to due process can make the police's job more difficult - if you consider the police's job to be something like "catching bad guys without regard to any collateral damage that might be caused along the way". But in a free society that's not normally the job we want the police to do. Of course the trouble in this case is that we either have private, secure communication or we don't. There is no halfway measure available. So both locking the police out of everything and giving them complete access to everything might be simplistic non-solutions to the real issue but they might also be the only options we have on this one so a least-of-evils argument may have to prevail.

BLKNSLVR 3y ago

I've personal experience of police not doing their job properly. Anything that makes their job more easy will only make them more lazy. Police work should be hard, because they have to navigate the law if they're to prosecute anyone. Lawyers love laziness, it's sloppy and steps all over lines of technicality. Also, the legal right to violate citizens rights should never be 'made easier' by any legislation. To be on the end of state-enabled rights violations pretty much entirely ruins any trust one may have in 'the system'. And that trust seems to be increasingly valuable and decreasingly present amongst the Western populace.

evandale 3y ago
I always find it a headscratcher when people advocate for making the violation of civil rights easier. Cops seem perfectly capable of doing it with the tools they have today.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

> That's the problem with e2e encryption: it makes the police's job much, much more difficult. So what? It should be difficult. They should have to literally send a guy to follow and literally spy on you if they want to learn a single bit of information about you. Not push a button and have your entire life revealed on their screens.

mytailorisrich 3y ago
It's nonsensical to claim that the job of the police should be difficult and made to be difficult. The restrictions and controls, which exist, should be an enforced legal framework. If today the police want to wiretap your phone they need a warrant, that's the control and 'difficulty', but then telcos will route your calls to them at the push of a button. Again, the issue with e2e encryption is real and complex.
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  It's not "nonsensical" at all. Even with warrants, authorities will abuse their power. I've seen a story here on HN about police submitting literal blank pages to judges and getting the warrants they want. Don't tell me this warrant bullshit stops anything. I refuse to grant them any power whatsoever by using subversive technology like encryption. Their only choice is to increase their tyranny by treating all encryption as proof of guilt, undermining the freedom of everyone, including yours. Will you tolerate the increased tyranny or will you oppose it? That is the question.
- lijok 3y ago
  The easier the job of the police is, the easier it becomes for them to create a police state. We can argue perfect imaginary world semantics all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that in the real world abuse is rampant and power over others is pursued at great cost. Making the job more difficult for the police costs nothing but money. To argue that we should relax our liberties to make the polices job easier, is to argue that liberty should be erasable by those willing to pay.