4 ms·

what works is living by example. and letting the kids grow up in an environment where nobody does drugs. showing them the bad outcome that others suffering from

by em-bee 3y ago

what works is living by example. and letting the kids grow up in an environment where nobody does drugs. showing them the bad outcome that others suffering from addiction experience may also be instructive. but generally kids do as the parents do. if you have a good relationship with your kids so that they are not trying to take drugs out of protest, then they won't be tempted to try.

pineaux 3y ago
I think this is bad advice.
_a_a_a_ 3y ago
I think you'll end up with drug-naive kids, which may be a similar risk. You've just shifted the risk to an older period of their life. Kids need information, not naivete enforced through ignorance.
- em-bee 3y ago
  living by example doesn't mean don't talk to your kids about drugs. there are only two options: kids learn about drugs by others telling them about it, or they learn by trying them. the latter is dangerous, so the former is the only option. everything else is the environment. my parents never talked to me about drugs or alcohol. we did talk about it in school though. i simply grew up in a family where alcohol or drugs did not exist, in an environment where kids didn't have easy access to alcohol and where we were generally educated in school to avoid that stuff. so noone did drugs or got drunk at school. maybe a few kids were drinking outside of school but it was never a big thing. i remember a classmate from middleschool saying that he refused to get cigarettes or beer for his dad because it's unhealthy. that's the kind of environment i grew up in. tell me how does that make me drug-naive and put me at risk? later as a student many of my peers frequently drank alcohol with meals, etc, i never did, and was never interested, because that's how i grew up. of course if that is not your environment then you have to be more proactive about making sure your kids are aware of the dangers, but in general, what has the most value is the example you give as parents. if you drink, you will have a much harder time to convince your kids to not drink. and for drugs it is my understanding that those who have experience with alcohol are more likely to try harder drugs too. (even just a small percentage) but more important the reverse, those that do not drink alcohol also are unlikely to try harder drugs. my interpretation of that is that if i want my kids to avoid drugs i can do that by not drinking alcohol and showing them that they need not join their peers when they drink. this is not to say that anyone drinking is putting their kids at risk, but that not drinking is very helpful to reduce that risk.
  - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
    This is a really great post and I appreciate it, and I don't even know where to start and how to respond. I suspect we have some very different assumptions which I'll try to make clear, which will lead us to disagreement, but that's okay. I wish we had the ability to sit down and talk this over in person, that would be extremely interesting. (I'm in the UK, which might give context) The largest assumption that seems to be behind your position is that society should not have recreational drugs. Is this correct? I disagree, I think recreational drugs used appropriately can improve life. Obviously if abused they may wreck it. > there are only two options: kids learn about drugs by others telling them about it, or they learn by trying them. the latter is dangerous, so the former is the only option. everything else is the environment. Without being trite, everything is dangerous in degree. A famous UK government drug researcher published a paper, details here https://www.drugscience.org.uk/societys-inconsistent-moral-judgements-of-potentially-harmful-activities/ https://www.drugscience.org.uk/societys-inconsistent-moral-j... that compared the risks of horseriding with MDMA and found that MDMA was safer (he was sacked for this). > my parents never talked to me about drugs or alcohol. we did talk about it in school though. i simply grew up in a family where alcohol or drugs did not exist, in an environment where kids didn't have easy access to alcohol I think we have had very different backgrounds. For a large part of my life we were living in council estates under a lot of stress. A lot. There's a lot of drinking and smoking from the other people there because they were self-medicating against the stress. I think there's a link between heroin use and Vietnam war that is well known in the US? It could be the biggest cause of drug use is stress; people just trying to cope. > and where we were generally educated in school to avoid that stuff. I'm uncomfortable because you're trying to make up other people's minds for them. I think that's an infringement on their right to independent thought – does that make sense? > that's the kind of environment i grew up in. tell me how does that make me drug-naive and put me at risk? It doesn't automatically do so, and in fact I may be completely wrong in assuming it can do, but at some point if some people have the opportunity to take harder drugs than alcohol, they will. For example, me. And I don't regret it, and having it delayed from my childhood into adulthood was probably a damn good thing – I'm less impulsive and more able to control the risks. > of course if that is not your environment then you have to be more proactive about making sure your kids are aware of the dangers, And benefits? Do you allow there could be benefits to recreational drugs used appropriately and in moderation? > but in general, what has the most value is the example you give as parents. if you drink, you will have a much harder time to convince your kids to not drink. Completely agree. > and for drugs it is my understanding that those who have experience with alcohol are more likely to try harder drugs too. (even just a small percentage) but more important the reverse, those that do not drink alcohol also are unlikely to try harder drugs. my interpretation of that is that if i want my kids to avoid drugs i can do that by not drinking alcohol and showing them that they need not join their peers when they drink. These links agree with you https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/is-alcohol-a-gateway-drug https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/is-alcohol-a-gatew... https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/alcohol-abuse/alcohol-gateway-drug/ https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/alcohol-abuse/alcohol-gat... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22712674/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22712674/ But they also say "Addiction is a complex disease – prior use of alcohol is simply another risk factor among many, and there is no single explanation for why someone becomes addicted. The interrelationships between the gateway drugs (tobacco, alcohol and cannabis) are complex" If you grew up in a different environment, under a lot more stress than it sounds you suffered, it may be the stress that is triggering use of alcohol and any other drugs you can lay your hands on. Found the heroine/Vietnam war link https://jamesclear.com/heroin-habits https://jamesclear.com/heroin-habits The soldiers got addicted due to stress and other factors, unexpectedly when they returned home a lot of them just stopped using it because the stress was, presumably "In other words, approximately nine out of ten soldiers who used heroin in Vietnam eliminated their addiction nearly overnight" > this is not to say that anyone drinking is putting their kids at risk, but that not drinking is very helpful to reduce that risk. Agreed. I'm not actually pro drugs, if there's one drug I would really like to make illegal it's cigarettes, and I would very, very much like to see the end of all and any advertising of alcohol. Hope you find this interesting

by em-bee 3y ago

pineaux 3y ago

I think this is bad advice.

_a_a_a_ 3y ago

I think you'll end up with drug-naive kids, which may be a similar risk. You've just shifted the risk to an older period of their life. Kids need information, not naivete enforced through ignorance.

em-bee 3y ago
living by example doesn't mean don't talk to your kids about drugs. there are only two options: kids learn about drugs by others telling them about it, or they learn by trying them. the latter is dangerous, so the former is the only option. everything else is the environment. my parents never talked to me about drugs or alcohol. we did talk about it in school though. i simply grew up in a family where alcohol or drugs did not exist, in an environment where kids didn't have easy access to alcohol and where we were generally educated in school to avoid that stuff. so noone did drugs or got drunk at school. maybe a few kids were drinking outside of school but it was never a big thing. i remember a classmate from middleschool saying that he refused to get cigarettes or beer for his dad because it's unhealthy. that's the kind of environment i grew up in. tell me how does that make me drug-naive and put me at risk? later as a student many of my peers frequently drank alcohol with meals, etc, i never did, and was never interested, because that's how i grew up. of course if that is not your environment then you have to be more proactive about making sure your kids are aware of the dangers, but in general, what has the most value is the example you give as parents. if you drink, you will have a much harder time to convince your kids to not drink. and for drugs it is my understanding that those who have experience with alcohol are more likely to try harder drugs too. (even just a small percentage) but more important the reverse, those that do not drink alcohol also are unlikely to try harder drugs. my interpretation of that is that if i want my kids to avoid drugs i can do that by not drinking alcohol and showing them that they need not join their peers when they drink. this is not to say that anyone drinking is putting their kids at risk, but that not drinking is very helpful to reduce that risk.
- _a_a_a_ 3y ago
  This is a really great post and I appreciate it, and I don't even know where to start and how to respond. I suspect we have some very different assumptions which I'll try to make clear, which will lead us to disagreement, but that's okay. I wish we had the ability to sit down and talk this over in person, that would be extremely interesting. (I'm in the UK, which might give context) The largest assumption that seems to be behind your position is that society should not have recreational drugs. Is this correct? I disagree, I think recreational drugs used appropriately can improve life. Obviously if abused they may wreck it. > there are only two options: kids learn about drugs by others telling them about it, or they learn by trying them. the latter is dangerous, so the former is the only option. everything else is the environment. Without being trite, everything is dangerous in degree. A famous UK government drug researcher published a paper, details here https://www.drugscience.org.uk/societys-inconsistent-moral-judgements-of-potentially-harmful-activities/ https://www.drugscience.org.uk/societys-inconsistent-moral-j... that compared the risks of horseriding with MDMA and found that MDMA was safer (he was sacked for this). > my parents never talked to me about drugs or alcohol. we did talk about it in school though. i simply grew up in a family where alcohol or drugs did not exist, in an environment where kids didn't have easy access to alcohol I think we have had very different backgrounds. For a large part of my life we were living in council estates under a lot of stress. A lot. There's a lot of drinking and smoking from the other people there because they were self-medicating against the stress. I think there's a link between heroin use and Vietnam war that is well known in the US? It could be the biggest cause of drug use is stress; people just trying to cope. > and where we were generally educated in school to avoid that stuff. I'm uncomfortable because you're trying to make up other people's minds for them. I think that's an infringement on their right to independent thought – does that make sense? > that's the kind of environment i grew up in. tell me how does that make me drug-naive and put me at risk? It doesn't automatically do so, and in fact I may be completely wrong in assuming it can do, but at some point if some people have the opportunity to take harder drugs than alcohol, they will. For example, me. And I don't regret it, and having it delayed from my childhood into adulthood was probably a damn good thing – I'm less impulsive and more able to control the risks. > of course if that is not your environment then you have to be more proactive about making sure your kids are aware of the dangers, And benefits? Do you allow there could be benefits to recreational drugs used appropriately and in moderation? > but in general, what has the most value is the example you give as parents. if you drink, you will have a much harder time to convince your kids to not drink. Completely agree. > and for drugs it is my understanding that those who have experience with alcohol are more likely to try harder drugs too. (even just a small percentage) but more important the reverse, those that do not drink alcohol also are unlikely to try harder drugs. my interpretation of that is that if i want my kids to avoid drugs i can do that by not drinking alcohol and showing them that they need not join their peers when they drink. These links agree with you https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/is-alcohol-a-gateway-drug https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/is-alcohol-a-gatew... https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/alcohol-abuse/alcohol-gateway-drug/ https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/alcohol-abuse/alcohol-gat... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22712674/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22712674/ But they also say "Addiction is a complex disease – prior use of alcohol is simply another risk factor among many, and there is no single explanation for why someone becomes addicted. The interrelationships between the gateway drugs (tobacco, alcohol and cannabis) are complex" If you grew up in a different environment, under a lot more stress than it sounds you suffered, it may be the stress that is triggering use of alcohol and any other drugs you can lay your hands on. Found the heroine/Vietnam war link https://jamesclear.com/heroin-habits https://jamesclear.com/heroin-habits The soldiers got addicted due to stress and other factors, unexpectedly when they returned home a lot of them just stopped using it because the stress was, presumably "In other words, approximately nine out of ten soldiers who used heroin in Vietnam eliminated their addiction nearly overnight" > this is not to say that anyone drinking is putting their kids at risk, but that not drinking is very helpful to reduce that risk. Agreed. I'm not actually pro drugs, if there's one drug I would really like to make illegal it's cigarettes, and I would very, very much like to see the end of all and any advertising of alcohol. Hope you find this interesting