3 ms·

> Yes, I don't care about getting updates. If they're important to you, that's fair. Hardware devices with embedded software couldn't get updates (or was a dif

by jjav 3y ago

> Yes, I don't care about getting updates. If they're important to you, that's fair. Hardware devices with embedded software couldn't get updates (or was a difficult job so didn't happen) until somewhat recently. It is unfortunate that the ability to do updates is used as a crutch to ship faulty software that then needs updates. A phone shouldn't ever need an update in its lifetime if it was properly built in the first place. I only recently stopped using my Motorola cellphone from 2005 (only because they decommissioned the towers). It never received any update in 17 years. It also never needed any. I would like to buy devices with that level of quality today.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
Well, yeah, and I'd like a pony. The main issue is security updates. I'm guessing you weren't accessing things like a banking app with highly sensitive financial data on your 2005 Motorola.
- jjav 3y ago
  > I'm guessing you weren't accessing things like a banking app with highly sensitive financial data For anyone who has done any serious threat modeling exercises would never ever do that from a 2023 phone (I'm fully aware many people do it regardless).w
  - lofaszvanitt 3y ago
    So what phone do you recommend for someone who is looking for a new phone?
    - flagrant_taco 3y ago
      If security is a concern, getting a newer Pixel and installing GrapheneOS is your best bet. It's still not perfect and nothing beats just not having a cell phone, but that's a choice very few are okay with today. The trick with GrapheneOS, or any privacy setup, is that it requires attention to stay reasonably secure. The OS won't matter if you enable Google services and install apps that track and sell all your data.
      - lofaszvanitt 3y ago
        What about the Exynos RCE bugs? Now that they are patched they are secure again or how is this supposed to work? What about the intentional backdoor unearthed in the pixel phone (the sim swap thingy)? Who was that for? My problem is, as a user, whose expertise is not 100% security, how can a layman decide which device to trust? Trust the neighbor, trust the expert who thinks is an expert, but doesn't see his own limitations, trust the newspapers parroting whatever they find (or their security advisor), trust the marmots or trust the looks, because you don't know what the silicon does. You might know one domain, but not multiple ones, like you might know the IT domain, but doesn't know the underlying physics domain, so you might think the phone is secure in the IT domain, but since you don't know jackshit about the physics, you have to again rely on someone's advice. The iPhone is locked down tight, even security experts have complained in the past because analysing the core internals is cumbersome. But that's a double edged sword, when you can't even get basic info about phone's status without resorting to some hacking shenanigans. Any way to know your firmware has not changed? How come there are zero tools for the layman to verify the status of his device? You don't know whether your usb's firmware is intact, whether your motherboard is a-ok and the list goes on. According to newspapers, it is/was the panacea of security (iPhone), yet sec bugs after sec bugs are coming out all the time. You don't even have complete control over the phone, since the software switches (like wifi) are not actually disabling the wifi circuitry. How come banks are sitting on ancient systems and are seemingly fine? Should you trust zerodium's bounty prices, should you trust exploit brokers? (they ought to see what's an emmentaler right?) Encrypted secure phones? Look how many criminals got caught, by putting their trust blindly into something, that someone parroted about how secure that is. GrapheneOS says they are secure, but where are tools that show you that yes we do this and that and that solves these kinds of attacks, thwarted these attacks in the past, demonstrated? Or should I go with an old blackberry? What about this article? https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/14/11434926/blackberry-encryption-master-key-broken-canada-rcmp-surveillance https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/14/11434926/blackberry-encry... Should you consider Mikko's advice. Use a phone that is made by a country, whose intelligence agency is not a threat to you? But how do you know that a phone, which is made in X country is actually controlled by that country's IA? And how do you know which IA is not a threat to you? :DDDDD Do you even have to fear against a nation state's capabilities or since they have unimited budget you are fucked when somehow get in their crosshairs? It's like flipping a coin, putting your trust into someone's solution blindly.
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    Yet somehow millions of people do, and I'm not aware of a single banking app breach caused by a zero-day device flaw. This advice to not use a 2023 phone is just plain silly. I'm not saying it's 100% locked down, but neither is going to a bank branch and talking to someone in person.
kalleboo 3y ago
Hardware devices with embedded software used to be air-gapped. As soon as phones got Bluetooth, you got Nokia Bluetooth viruses that would spread via public transit, and you had to go to a service center to fix it since it wasn't designed to be updated. Even in the days of "software was complete on launch", security was absolutely abysmal and we just relied on most people being honest.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  Yeah, saying "embedded software used to be complete and final back in the day" is such a rose-colored glasses take. When I was a kid we could occasionally pick up car phone (that's what we called cell phones back then) conversations by changing to a particular channel on the TV.

by jjav 3y ago

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

Well, yeah, and I'd like a pony. The main issue is security updates. I'm guessing you weren't accessing things like a banking app with highly sensitive financial data on your 2005 Motorola.

jjav 3y ago
> I'm guessing you weren't accessing things like a banking app with highly sensitive financial data For anyone who has done any serious threat modeling exercises would never ever do that from a 2023 phone (I'm fully aware many people do it regardless).w
- lofaszvanitt 3y ago
  So what phone do you recommend for someone who is looking for a new phone?
  - flagrant_taco 3y ago
    If security is a concern, getting a newer Pixel and installing GrapheneOS is your best bet. It's still not perfect and nothing beats just not having a cell phone, but that's a choice very few are okay with today. The trick with GrapheneOS, or any privacy setup, is that it requires attention to stay reasonably secure. The OS won't matter if you enable Google services and install apps that track and sell all your data.
    - lofaszvanitt 3y ago
      What about the Exynos RCE bugs? Now that they are patched they are secure again or how is this supposed to work? What about the intentional backdoor unearthed in the pixel phone (the sim swap thingy)? Who was that for? My problem is, as a user, whose expertise is not 100% security, how can a layman decide which device to trust? Trust the neighbor, trust the expert who thinks is an expert, but doesn't see his own limitations, trust the newspapers parroting whatever they find (or their security advisor), trust the marmots or trust the looks, because you don't know what the silicon does. You might know one domain, but not multiple ones, like you might know the IT domain, but doesn't know the underlying physics domain, so you might think the phone is secure in the IT domain, but since you don't know jackshit about the physics, you have to again rely on someone's advice. The iPhone is locked down tight, even security experts have complained in the past because analysing the core internals is cumbersome. But that's a double edged sword, when you can't even get basic info about phone's status without resorting to some hacking shenanigans. Any way to know your firmware has not changed? How come there are zero tools for the layman to verify the status of his device? You don't know whether your usb's firmware is intact, whether your motherboard is a-ok and the list goes on. According to newspapers, it is/was the panacea of security (iPhone), yet sec bugs after sec bugs are coming out all the time. You don't even have complete control over the phone, since the software switches (like wifi) are not actually disabling the wifi circuitry. How come banks are sitting on ancient systems and are seemingly fine? Should you trust zerodium's bounty prices, should you trust exploit brokers? (they ought to see what's an emmentaler right?) Encrypted secure phones? Look how many criminals got caught, by putting their trust blindly into something, that someone parroted about how secure that is. GrapheneOS says they are secure, but where are tools that show you that yes we do this and that and that solves these kinds of attacks, thwarted these attacks in the past, demonstrated? Or should I go with an old blackberry? What about this article? https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/14/11434926/blackberry-encryption-master-key-broken-canada-rcmp-surveillance https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/14/11434926/blackberry-encry... Should you consider Mikko's advice. Use a phone that is made by a country, whose intelligence agency is not a threat to you? But how do you know that a phone, which is made in X country is actually controlled by that country's IA? And how do you know which IA is not a threat to you? :DDDDD Do you even have to fear against a nation state's capabilities or since they have unimited budget you are fucked when somehow get in their crosshairs? It's like flipping a coin, putting your trust into someone's solution blindly.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  Yet somehow millions of people do, and I'm not aware of a single banking app breach caused by a zero-day device flaw. This advice to not use a 2023 phone is just plain silly. I'm not saying it's 100% locked down, but neither is going to a bank branch and talking to someone in person.

kalleboo 3y ago

Hardware devices with embedded software used to be air-gapped. As soon as phones got Bluetooth, you got Nokia Bluetooth viruses that would spread via public transit, and you had to go to a service center to fix it since it wasn't designed to be updated. Even in the days of "software was complete on launch", security was absolutely abysmal and we just relied on most people being honest.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
Yeah, saying "embedded software used to be complete and final back in the day" is such a rose-colored glasses take. When I was a kid we could occasionally pick up car phone (that's what we called cell phones back then) conversations by changing to a particular channel on the TV.