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One of the weird things about America is that we all know Asian kids are better at math than other kids on average. Its pretty obvious to anyone that's been in

One of the weird things about America is that we all know Asian kids are better at math than other kids on average. Its pretty obvious to anyone that's been in a class with Asians or taught Asians. I've done both. But nobody can actually say this. Instead we have to pretend like this isn't the case. Just look at math Olympiad teams. I coached one years ago. My entire team was Asian except for two alternates. One who was Russian, and the other Indian. Yes, environment can change outcomes ... but maybe it can't change outcomes to a point where everyone is going to perform the same. Are we going to try to get everyone's 100M sprint into the same range too? People are different. We should give every individual the same shot at opportunities but I don't think we are ever going to make Asian kids perform at the level of other kids in math or vice versa. Its not environment. Every one of us that has taught an engineering or math course knows this. Even if we don't talk about it.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> One of the weird things about America is that we all know Asian kids are better at math than other kids on average. Its pretty obvious to anyone that's been in a class with Asians or taught Asians. I've done both. > But nobody can actually say this. “Asian kids in the US are, on average, better at math and, furthermore, this effect is stronger the fewer generations removed from immigration they are, and is in large part due to well-established general familial impacts on performance and the selective filter of immigration.”
moosey 3y ago
To sum up another comment: it's cultural, not biological. Race is not a useful scientific guideline for any kind of scientific study. For example: there is as much biological diversity in sub Saharan Africa as the rest of the world, but racially, the best we can do is "Black", or "African". It's a useless, dated concept that we, as species, find it difficult to work past because our brains are categorical engines. I'm as politically "leftist" as anyone you'll ever meet, but we have to be able to do better than "Asians are good at math" to make effective decisions about education, amongst other problems. This is of course impossible with the current world and thinking. Even though I know race isn't real, I still see it. It still has an impact on my day to day actions, because my stupid brain is all too happy to categorize people on how they appear. Taking another route: to say that Asians are good at math is categorical error. The word "Asians" represents something abstract, and abstract things cannot take action. Categorical error is basically the starting point for the various "isms" like misogyny, misandry, racism, etc.
- krapp 3y ago
  This isn't a problem we have as a species. It's not biological, it is cultural. The racial categories we use today were created in the 17th century to justify the white supremacist apparatus of slavery and colonialism - prior to that, people tended to categorize humanity by tribe, ethnicity or religion rather than superficial physical traits. Asian people, for instance, didn't see each other as the same "race" until white people came along and assigned them that categorization. You, I and everyone else are stuck in this way of thinking because we've been so thoroughly indoctrinated into a system of white supremacy which permeates the entirety of Western culture, it isn't even noticeable, like we're in the Matrix. It persists because it's useful for keeping the power centers that benefit from it entrenched, and everyone else divided. We can move on from it, but I think the first thing we need to do is recognize that it isn't inevitable.
  - peanutcrisis 3y ago
    Please keep your CRT style racism and conspiracy theory out of the discussion.
    - krapp 3y ago
      Exhibit A, your honor.
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    > Asian people, for instance, didn't see each other as the same "race" until white people came along and assigned them that categorization. Do you think Asian people would have not come to the same conclusion, even if white peoples hadn’t said so first? I tend to think it was somewhat inevitable that Chinese, Korean, and Japanese people think of themselves as having more in common with each other than with French or Mexican people.
    - nitwit005 3y ago
      Sure, but the racial categories do vary considerably around the world. And even in a single location, if you look back in time, you can see how people got categorized shifting. People used to insist Italians weren't white here in the US.
tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago
This is absurd cable news pundit-level commentary. It doesn’t sound like you’ve actually looked into this. More that you’ve taken some snippets of your life experience and explained it using your preconceived worldview. Nothing empirical about it. Nothing scientific. And the cherry on top is the implication that you’re “saying what we are all thinking”. Your experience teaching engineering or maths courses doesn’t qualify your baseless intuition as to causality, especially when the stakes are so high as to typecast such large groups of people. This is a classic case of a misplaced assumption of transferable expertise.
nitwit005 3y ago
> we all know Asian kids are better at math than other kids on average. Mostly because of who immigrates to the US. Those Asian and Russian kids you mention probably have software engineers as parents. The Hispanic kids probably do not. If we got the poorest and least educated immigrants from the same places, we'd be seeing rather different results.
- TheMagicHorsey 3y ago
  That wouldn't change the end result though ... which is that for kids in America, we aren't going to get everyone at the same level of performance as Asian kids by money alone.
  - nitwit005 3y ago
    Sure, but that doesn't mean you can't do anything either. The inability to achieve a perfect result doesn't matter.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
I think the problem is more about skill floors than skill ceilings. I never really cared that much about Asian's positive stereotypes, but the same arguments have been used to propose arguments that hispanic/black students are inherently inferior. Despite the face that much of that, was and is environmental issues. Once you hit a certain point, sure. There will simply be people who's brains work differently and efficiently, similar to runners who have different pique physiques for their respective category (I don't think we even tap into half of that in classical public teaching but I digress). But it's a much bigger sale to say that some people simply can't pass high school level acedemics and use that against them.

dragonwriter 3y ago

> One of the weird things about America is that we all know Asian kids are better at math than other kids on average. Its pretty obvious to anyone that's been in a class with Asians or taught Asians. I've done both. > But nobody can actually say this. “Asian kids in the US are, on average, better at math and, furthermore, this effect is stronger the fewer generations removed from immigration they are, and is in large part due to well-established general familial impacts on performance and the selective filter of immigration.”

moosey 3y ago

To sum up another comment: it's cultural, not biological. Race is not a useful scientific guideline for any kind of scientific study. For example: there is as much biological diversity in sub Saharan Africa as the rest of the world, but racially, the best we can do is "Black", or "African". It's a useless, dated concept that we, as species, find it difficult to work past because our brains are categorical engines. I'm as politically "leftist" as anyone you'll ever meet, but we have to be able to do better than "Asians are good at math" to make effective decisions about education, amongst other problems. This is of course impossible with the current world and thinking. Even though I know race isn't real, I still see it. It still has an impact on my day to day actions, because my stupid brain is all too happy to categorize people on how they appear. Taking another route: to say that Asians are good at math is categorical error. The word "Asians" represents something abstract, and abstract things cannot take action. Categorical error is basically the starting point for the various "isms" like misogyny, misandry, racism, etc.

krapp 3y ago
This isn't a problem we have as a species. It's not biological, it is cultural. The racial categories we use today were created in the 17th century to justify the white supremacist apparatus of slavery and colonialism - prior to that, people tended to categorize humanity by tribe, ethnicity or religion rather than superficial physical traits. Asian people, for instance, didn't see each other as the same "race" until white people came along and assigned them that categorization. You, I and everyone else are stuck in this way of thinking because we've been so thoroughly indoctrinated into a system of white supremacy which permeates the entirety of Western culture, it isn't even noticeable, like we're in the Matrix. It persists because it's useful for keeping the power centers that benefit from it entrenched, and everyone else divided. We can move on from it, but I think the first thing we need to do is recognize that it isn't inevitable.
- peanutcrisis 3y ago
  Please keep your CRT style racism and conspiracy theory out of the discussion.
  - krapp 3y ago
    Exhibit A, your honor.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  > Asian people, for instance, didn't see each other as the same "race" until white people came along and assigned them that categorization. Do you think Asian people would have not come to the same conclusion, even if white peoples hadn’t said so first? I tend to think it was somewhat inevitable that Chinese, Korean, and Japanese people think of themselves as having more in common with each other than with French or Mexican people.
  - nitwit005 3y ago
    Sure, but the racial categories do vary considerably around the world. And even in a single location, if you look back in time, you can see how people got categorized shifting. People used to insist Italians weren't white here in the US.

tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago

This is absurd cable news pundit-level commentary. It doesn’t sound like you’ve actually looked into this. More that you’ve taken some snippets of your life experience and explained it using your preconceived worldview. Nothing empirical about it. Nothing scientific. And the cherry on top is the implication that you’re “saying what we are all thinking”. Your experience teaching engineering or maths courses doesn’t qualify your baseless intuition as to causality, especially when the stakes are so high as to typecast such large groups of people. This is a classic case of a misplaced assumption of transferable expertise.

nitwit005 3y ago

> we all know Asian kids are better at math than other kids on average. Mostly because of who immigrates to the US. Those Asian and Russian kids you mention probably have software engineers as parents. The Hispanic kids probably do not. If we got the poorest and least educated immigrants from the same places, we'd be seeing rather different results.

TheMagicHorsey 3y ago
That wouldn't change the end result though ... which is that for kids in America, we aren't going to get everyone at the same level of performance as Asian kids by money alone.
- nitwit005 3y ago
  Sure, but that doesn't mean you can't do anything either. The inability to achieve a perfect result doesn't matter.

johnnyanmac 3y ago

I think the problem is more about skill floors than skill ceilings. I never really cared that much about Asian's positive stereotypes, but the same arguments have been used to propose arguments that hispanic/black students are inherently inferior. Despite the face that much of that, was and is environmental issues. Once you hit a certain point, sure. There will simply be people who's brains work differently and efficiently, similar to runners who have different pique physiques for their respective category (I don't think we even tap into half of that in classical public teaching but I digress). But it's a much bigger sale to say that some people simply can't pass high school level acedemics and use that against them.