7 ms·

This research won't matter for prisoners in the US. We (Americans at large) send criminals to prison for punishment, not rehab. It's why we care so little abou

This research won't matter for prisoners in the US. We (Americans at large) send criminals to prison for punishment, not rehab. It's why we care so little about their treatment while in prison. Why we make rape jokes about prisoners. Why we rarely get angry about prisoners dying in prisons. And that's when they aren't sources of revenue for private companies. Yes, I'm to angry about this state of affairs to even begin to think it can be changed.

guerrilla 3y ago
> And that's when they aren't sources of revenue for private companies. *slaves
- ROTMetro 3y ago
  The Thirteenth Amendment forbade slavery and involuntary servitude, “except as punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.” https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-labor-in-america/406177/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-...
  - guerrilla 3y ago
    Okay? This is well-known. What is your point?
    - Philpax 3y ago
      They were supporting your claim for other readers by demonstrating the exception in the amendment, not trying to raise a new point.
  - worik 3y ago
    > except as punishment So if making a profit is the purpose it is illegal?
  - qingcharles 3y ago
    And on top of that there are literally dozens of other exceptions the courts have come up with over the years. I was forced into slavery by the government in the USA, due to exceptions that allow the government to force unconvicted persons into labor in certain circumstances. Here are a few of the other exceptions: https://onlabor.org/when-is-forced-labor-consistent-with-the-general-basic-system-of-free-labor-an-analysis-of-historical-judge-made-exceptions-to-the-thirteenth-amendment/ https://onlabor.org/when-is-forced-labor-consistent-with-the...
    - guerrilla 3y ago
      I love how they'te lile unfree labor is consistent with free labor. They just literally don't care what the law is. Just goes to show it's all a bunch of playing pretend. Sorry about what happened to you. Terrible.
ROTMetro 3y ago
Edit: To clarify, the court interprets this statute as baring rehabilitation considerations in Federal prison. A Federal Prison sentence has zero intention of being rehabilitative, by statute and Congressional intent: Title 18 U.S. Code § 3582 - Imposition of a sentence of imprisonment (a)Factors To Be Considered in Imposing a Term of Imprisonment.— The court, in determining whether to impose a term of imprisonment, and, if a term of imprisonment is to be imposed, in determining the length of the term, shall consider the factors set forth in section 3553(a) to the extent that they are applicable, recognizing that imprisonment is not an appropriate means of promoting correction and rehabilitation.
- cutemonster 3y ago
  Odd interpretation, I think. To me it sounds more as if those who wrote the text, meant "Don't keep people in prison for too long, transfer them elsewhere to some place better for rehab as soon as reasonable." But not "rehab is forbidden and prisoners should get bullied by sadists"
  - ROTMetro 3y ago
    Odd interpretation? I am going with how the courts and case law interpret it.
  - sethammons 3y ago
    "You are going to Jerry's house. Jerry is not an appropriate source for hamburgers." This doesn't suggest anything about urgency to get a hamburger, just to not expect any.
EA-3167 3y ago
What research? I read the article expecting a study, but it never even mentions the word "research" so that was a dud. The title OP is using here isn't the title from the article, which may be why people only reading the headline here might assume that the article delves into some sort of study, but it doesn't. I have no dog in this fight, but I don't like how this is being treated as something academically sound, rather than an article that is basically a collection of vox pops.
Georgelemental 3y ago
> We (Americans at large) send criminals to prison for punishment, not rehab. Mostly, we send them to prison so they are out of the streets and aren't committing more crimes. Their fate doesn't matter to us beyond that; out of sight, out of mind.
enlyth 3y ago
I am always amazed at the amount of online discussions where masses of people cheer on about prisoners getting raped in prison, as if that is some logical consequence of getting incarcerated and should be the default punishment in addition to the time done. These people want retribution, not justice. It's scary and I don't want to live with the same people in society who think it's okay to think like this.
- PartiallyTyped 3y ago
  It’s all just another circus to keep the masses occupied, this one also acts as a deterrent. Too many people are comfortable with the death penalty, and too many see vigilantes favourably.
majormajor 3y ago
> This research won't matter for prisoners in the US. From the link: > This year California became the second state in the nation, and the largest to date, to mandate free calls in state prisons. It's news that directly contradicts you, not research. I think this is a HN headline auto-edit that impairs understanding, sadly: "California’s free prison calls are repairing estranged relationships and aiding rehabilitation" - removing "California's" and changing "are repairing" to "boost" significantly changes what it means.
commonlisp94 3y ago
> prison for punishment, not rehab. Prisons are already an idealistic institution, in the interest of being more humane. The alternative before was capital punishment, work camps, or slavery (including in war). That's not to say prisons are ok in their current state, or can't be improvement. I just don't think rehab was historically the primary intent.
- qingcharles 3y ago
  Prisons on the scale we have now are a very modern invention. In history the vast majority of crimes were punished with fines (good for the government), expulsion or fairly petty physical punishments. This is one of the best researched books on the subject, IMO: https://www.amazon.com/Oxford-History-Prison-Practice-Punishment/dp/0195118146 https://www.amazon.com/Oxford-History-Prison-Practice-Punish...
tehwebguy 3y ago
> Why we rarely get angry about prisoners dying in prisons. Another reason for this one is that departments in charge of prisons try to keep prison deaths quiet[0] and refuse to perform autopsies for months[1] [0] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/06/deaths-at-rikers-city-jails-wont-be-reported-to-the-media.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/06/deaths-at-rikers-cit... > The City reported on Thursday that the New York City Department of Correction will no longer notify the media when a person dies while incarcerated, ending a consistent process that has been in effect for two years. “That was a practice, not a policy,” Frank Dwyer, the department’s new spokesman, told the outlet. [1] https://twitter.com/keribla/status/1639033487603933186 https://twitter.com/keribla/status/1639033487603933186?
bequanna 3y ago
No, we send people to prison to remove them from society so they stop harming others. These largely aren’t people who were committing minor crimes like selling weed, they are people who have repeatedly proven themselves to be dangerous, violent and antisocial.

guerrilla 3y ago

> And that's when they aren't sources of revenue for private companies. *slaves

ROTMetro 3y ago
The Thirteenth Amendment forbade slavery and involuntary servitude, “except as punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.” https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-labor-in-america/406177/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-...
- guerrilla 3y ago
  Okay? This is well-known. What is your point?
  - Philpax 3y ago
    They were supporting your claim for other readers by demonstrating the exception in the amendment, not trying to raise a new point.
- worik 3y ago
  > except as punishment So if making a profit is the purpose it is illegal?
- qingcharles 3y ago
  And on top of that there are literally dozens of other exceptions the courts have come up with over the years. I was forced into slavery by the government in the USA, due to exceptions that allow the government to force unconvicted persons into labor in certain circumstances. Here are a few of the other exceptions: https://onlabor.org/when-is-forced-labor-consistent-with-the-general-basic-system-of-free-labor-an-analysis-of-historical-judge-made-exceptions-to-the-thirteenth-amendment/ https://onlabor.org/when-is-forced-labor-consistent-with-the...
  - guerrilla 3y ago
    I love how they'te lile unfree labor is consistent with free labor. They just literally don't care what the law is. Just goes to show it's all a bunch of playing pretend. Sorry about what happened to you. Terrible.

ROTMetro 3y ago

Edit: To clarify, the court interprets this statute as baring rehabilitation considerations in Federal prison. A Federal Prison sentence has zero intention of being rehabilitative, by statute and Congressional intent: Title 18 U.S. Code § 3582 - Imposition of a sentence of imprisonment (a)Factors To Be Considered in Imposing a Term of Imprisonment.— The court, in determining whether to impose a term of imprisonment, and, if a term of imprisonment is to be imposed, in determining the length of the term, shall consider the factors set forth in section 3553(a) to the extent that they are applicable, recognizing that imprisonment is not an appropriate means of promoting correction and rehabilitation.

cutemonster 3y ago
Odd interpretation, I think. To me it sounds more as if those who wrote the text, meant "Don't keep people in prison for too long, transfer them elsewhere to some place better for rehab as soon as reasonable." But not "rehab is forbidden and prisoners should get bullied by sadists"
- ROTMetro 3y ago
  Odd interpretation? I am going with how the courts and case law interpret it.
- sethammons 3y ago
  "You are going to Jerry's house. Jerry is not an appropriate source for hamburgers." This doesn't suggest anything about urgency to get a hamburger, just to not expect any.

EA-3167 3y ago

What research? I read the article expecting a study, but it never even mentions the word "research" so that was a dud. The title OP is using here isn't the title from the article, which may be why people only reading the headline here might assume that the article delves into some sort of study, but it doesn't. I have no dog in this fight, but I don't like how this is being treated as something academically sound, rather than an article that is basically a collection of vox pops.

Georgelemental 3y ago

> We (Americans at large) send criminals to prison for punishment, not rehab. Mostly, we send them to prison so they are out of the streets and aren't committing more crimes. Their fate doesn't matter to us beyond that; out of sight, out of mind.

enlyth 3y ago

I am always amazed at the amount of online discussions where masses of people cheer on about prisoners getting raped in prison, as if that is some logical consequence of getting incarcerated and should be the default punishment in addition to the time done. These people want retribution, not justice. It's scary and I don't want to live with the same people in society who think it's okay to think like this.

PartiallyTyped 3y ago
It’s all just another circus to keep the masses occupied, this one also acts as a deterrent. Too many people are comfortable with the death penalty, and too many see vigilantes favourably.

majormajor 3y ago

> This research won't matter for prisoners in the US. From the link: > This year California became the second state in the nation, and the largest to date, to mandate free calls in state prisons. It's news that directly contradicts you, not research. I think this is a HN headline auto-edit that impairs understanding, sadly: "California’s free prison calls are repairing estranged relationships and aiding rehabilitation" - removing "California's" and changing "are repairing" to "boost" significantly changes what it means.

commonlisp94 3y ago

> prison for punishment, not rehab. Prisons are already an idealistic institution, in the interest of being more humane. The alternative before was capital punishment, work camps, or slavery (including in war). That's not to say prisons are ok in their current state, or can't be improvement. I just don't think rehab was historically the primary intent.

qingcharles 3y ago
Prisons on the scale we have now are a very modern invention. In history the vast majority of crimes were punished with fines (good for the government), expulsion or fairly petty physical punishments. This is one of the best researched books on the subject, IMO: https://www.amazon.com/Oxford-History-Prison-Practice-Punishment/dp/0195118146 https://www.amazon.com/Oxford-History-Prison-Practice-Punish...

tehwebguy 3y ago

> Why we rarely get angry about prisoners dying in prisons. Another reason for this one is that departments in charge of prisons try to keep prison deaths quiet[0] and refuse to perform autopsies for months[1] [0] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/06/deaths-at-rikers-city-jails-wont-be-reported-to-the-media.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/06/deaths-at-rikers-cit... > The City reported on Thursday that the New York City Department of Correction will no longer notify the media when a person dies while incarcerated, ending a consistent process that has been in effect for two years. “That was a practice, not a policy,” Frank Dwyer, the department’s new spokesman, told the outlet. [1] https://twitter.com/keribla/status/1639033487603933186 https://twitter.com/keribla/status/1639033487603933186?

bequanna 3y ago

No, we send people to prison to remove them from society so they stop harming others. These largely aren’t people who were committing minor crimes like selling weed, they are people who have repeatedly proven themselves to be dangerous, violent and antisocial.