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Witnessed this kind of thing today. Doting father of three boys on vacation. They're all ditzing around on busy sidewalks and the father barks "Control yourselv

by uoaei 3y ago

Witnessed this kind of thing today. Doting father of three boys on vacation. They're all ditzing around on busy sidewalks and the father barks "Control yourselves!" It occurred to me at that moment that this kind of hovering and scolding teaches children to externalize the responsibility of understanding their environment and their place within it. They will literally never learn the lessons this father wants to impart because he will always be there to act for them, until the children's brains lose the plasticity necessary to properly internalize those things. Perhaps they will always struggle with a psychological complex they can never fully understand. I know this because I had a doting mother who always defined my priorities for me. I learned to nearly fully externalize the maintenance of those priorities to her expectations (which were transitively pinned to those of the formal academic and "professional" systems). Because of this I'm currently going through something of an existential crisis -- I really don't know what I want to do. My career has been unfulfilling and trying to develop lasting hobbies and interests have not borne out the deep kinds of satisfaction others seem to be able to achieve. I still hold out hope I can find something that "gets the ball rolling" but learning patience while watching myself continue to orient myself toward goals that have definitive, quantifiable, socially-acceptable ends has been unsettling. I want to feel comfortable in my day-to-day, or at least confident that the processes I enact encourage the development of a more whole being.

SoftTalker 3y ago
Eh don't beat yourself up. I grew up with a lot of unstructured play time and I still don't feel like I have any real passions or a very satisfying career. I think that's pretty normal and a lot of what people talk about with regards to passions and interests is just bullshit or making conversation. A father or mother admonishing their kids to behave in public is not really anything new either.
- uoaei 3y ago
  The instance was exemplary of a broader philosophy of thinking for children, rather than providing opportunities for them to learn to think for themselves. Such is the nature of parables.
watwut 3y ago
The busy sidewalk thing is about innocent passersbys not having to deal with rowdy kids bumping into them or otherwise bothering them. And actually, kids that are told to watch it actually overall do take more care about that sort of stuff then if parents just let them do whatever.
- SomewhatLikely 3y ago
  My young kids would be totally unaware if they were bumping into others, or causing them to stop abruptly, or otherwise interfering with others. Of course if those strangers yelled at them or provided some less harsh form of feedback it might register with them, but I find most people don't say anything so it's on me to let my kids know the effects they're behavior is having.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    > I find most people don't say anything so it's on me to let my kids know the effects they're behavior is having. People are terrified of saying anything because of the likely reaction of the kids' parents. The "it takes a village" mindset is gone. If someone's kid runs into you and you so much as say "excuse me" to them, you risk the parents getting in your face, holding up their cellphone camera, yelling "You don't talk to my kids. Go mind your damn business, Karen!" Not worth it--so bad behavior in public goes uncorrected. Even when kids aren't involved, people's reaction more and more to public criticism/correction is to get belligerent and tell you to mind your business.
    - dghlsakjg 3y ago
      Truly. I was at a park concert once, the kind where everyone is sitting, and there was a large family in front of me. One of the kids (around 12 I would guess, old enough in any case) kept standing up, roaming around, and generally blocking the view of the people behind him, even though he wasn't watching the show (he was literally munching on snacks and facing back in the crowd). I wouldn't have cared if he was excited, dancing, enjoying the show, but that was just not the case. I asked him if he could sit down so I could see. His dad immediately got in my face and demanded that I apologize to his son. He didn't leave until the police got involved.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
scruple 3y ago
I'll offer a perspective. I'm a father of 3 young kids (4 year old twins, 20 month old). I often find myself in situations where I also need my children to stop whatever they're currently doing and pay attention to me. You mention this happened on a sidewalk. Cars drive next to sidewalks. The American culture of cars is the number one cause of anxiety in my life as a parent to young children. I do not want to feel this anxiety, I do not like how it makes me react towards my children, who just want to play and have fun and explore the world and try to understand it. But cars exist. And today they are a much bigger problem than they were when I was their age, for a whole variety of reasons that are very well understood and articulated by people far more intelligent and capable than I am. And my children are, practically every single day, within 4-6 feet of cars that are a) much larger than they have any right to be, and b) driving much faster than they have any reason to, to the point that if they are careless about where they are, or what they are doing, they run a very serious risk of being killed. That is why I sometimes respond to my children the way that I do, in line with what you've observed here. I don't like it, either, but it is what it is. Now, I go out of my way to get my kids into big, wide, safe open spaces on a daily basis, and I will deliberately ignore them (within reason -- I keep tabs on where they are, etc.) so that they can go off and find interesting ways to play, hurt themselves, whatever. But I still have to engage with the automobile problem multiple times almost every single day of our lives.
- rcpt 3y ago
  > Cars This is 99% of it (other 1% is fear of other parents scolding you). There's a beach bike path near us with only one street crossing in 5 miles. My 6 and 7 year old are free to explore the whole thing unattended provided they avoid that crossing. It has playgrounds and all kinds of stuff they can stop their bikes at. But I won't let them cross the street we live on because none of these drivers are thinking about pedestrians and even if they were I doubt any of the lifted trucks could even see a 4ft tall kid.
- uoaei 3y ago
  I didn't mean to make it seem like I was challenging the parent's decision to involve themselves in the behaviors of their kids. I'm speaking more to the curt, evidently anxious outburst rather than a more even-handed and considerate approach.

by uoaei 3y ago

SoftTalker 3y ago

Eh don't beat yourself up. I grew up with a lot of unstructured play time and I still don't feel like I have any real passions or a very satisfying career. I think that's pretty normal and a lot of what people talk about with regards to passions and interests is just bullshit or making conversation. A father or mother admonishing their kids to behave in public is not really anything new either.

uoaei 3y ago
The instance was exemplary of a broader philosophy of thinking for children, rather than providing opportunities for them to learn to think for themselves. Such is the nature of parables.

watwut 3y ago

The busy sidewalk thing is about innocent passersbys not having to deal with rowdy kids bumping into them or otherwise bothering them. And actually, kids that are told to watch it actually overall do take more care about that sort of stuff then if parents just let them do whatever.

SomewhatLikely 3y ago
My young kids would be totally unaware if they were bumping into others, or causing them to stop abruptly, or otherwise interfering with others. Of course if those strangers yelled at them or provided some less harsh form of feedback it might register with them, but I find most people don't say anything so it's on me to let my kids know the effects they're behavior is having.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  > I find most people don't say anything so it's on me to let my kids know the effects they're behavior is having. People are terrified of saying anything because of the likely reaction of the kids' parents. The "it takes a village" mindset is gone. If someone's kid runs into you and you so much as say "excuse me" to them, you risk the parents getting in your face, holding up their cellphone camera, yelling "You don't talk to my kids. Go mind your damn business, Karen!" Not worth it--so bad behavior in public goes uncorrected. Even when kids aren't involved, people's reaction more and more to public criticism/correction is to get belligerent and tell you to mind your business.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    Truly. I was at a park concert once, the kind where everyone is sitting, and there was a large family in front of me. One of the kids (around 12 I would guess, old enough in any case) kept standing up, roaming around, and generally blocking the view of the people behind him, even though he wasn't watching the show (he was literally munching on snacks and facing back in the crowd). I wouldn't have cared if he was excited, dancing, enjoying the show, but that was just not the case. I asked him if he could sit down so I could see. His dad immediately got in my face and demanded that I apologize to his son. He didn't leave until the police got involved.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

scruple 3y ago

I'll offer a perspective. I'm a father of 3 young kids (4 year old twins, 20 month old). I often find myself in situations where I also need my children to stop whatever they're currently doing and pay attention to me. You mention this happened on a sidewalk. Cars drive next to sidewalks. The American culture of cars is the number one cause of anxiety in my life as a parent to young children. I do not want to feel this anxiety, I do not like how it makes me react towards my children, who just want to play and have fun and explore the world and try to understand it. But cars exist. And today they are a much bigger problem than they were when I was their age, for a whole variety of reasons that are very well understood and articulated by people far more intelligent and capable than I am. And my children are, practically every single day, within 4-6 feet of cars that are a) much larger than they have any right to be, and b) driving much faster than they have any reason to, to the point that if they are careless about where they are, or what they are doing, they run a very serious risk of being killed. That is why I sometimes respond to my children the way that I do, in line with what you've observed here. I don't like it, either, but it is what it is. Now, I go out of my way to get my kids into big, wide, safe open spaces on a daily basis, and I will deliberately ignore them (within reason -- I keep tabs on where they are, etc.) so that they can go off and find interesting ways to play, hurt themselves, whatever. But I still have to engage with the automobile problem multiple times almost every single day of our lives.

rcpt 3y ago
> Cars This is 99% of it (other 1% is fear of other parents scolding you). There's a beach bike path near us with only one street crossing in 5 miles. My 6 and 7 year old are free to explore the whole thing unattended provided they avoid that crossing. It has playgrounds and all kinds of stuff they can stop their bikes at. But I won't let them cross the street we live on because none of these drivers are thinking about pedestrians and even if they were I doubt any of the lifted trucks could even see a 4ft tall kid.
uoaei 3y ago
I didn't mean to make it seem like I was challenging the parent's decision to involve themselves in the behaviors of their kids. I'm speaking more to the curt, evidently anxious outburst rather than a more even-handed and considerate approach.