8 ms·

This is one of those findings that feels so unbelievably obvious. Of _course_ giving prisoners the ability to stay connected with the outside world helps rehabi

This is one of those findings that feels so unbelievably obvious. Of _course_ giving prisoners the ability to stay connected with the outside world helps rehabilitate them. It also really highlights just how cruel for cruelty's sake our modern prison system is. I know there's an almost fetishistic worship of punishment in the US and many other countries with large prison populations as a method of "rehabilitation", but the data shows us that if you actually care about healing people (spoiler: the US does not), it's both not very expensive and extremely positive for society to do it right. It starts with free phone calls, work transition programs, reducing restrictions on jobs held by ex-felons, and other simple changes that cost a hell of a lot less than taking care of the broken souls our prisons churn out.

Georgelemental 3y ago
The primary purpose of prisons is to keep criminals out of the streets and physically unable to re-offend. Punishment and/or rehabilitation are at most distant secondary considerations.
- Tronno 3y ago
  If that were true, then why do prison sentences have an end date?
  - fnimick 3y ago
    A disturbing number of Americans would be very happy if they didn't. See: "tough on crime" winning elections everywhere, three strikes laws, mandatory minimums, and the surprisingly popular viewpoint even in relatively liberal areas that more crimes should face the death penalty. The last one is particularly eye-opening: when I point out that the death penalty costs the state more due to appeals, the response I frequently get is that the solution there is to make the death penalty easier to apply and block appeals on it. "Execute all drug dealers" and the like.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- 7952 3y ago
  It is a false dichotomy. We could have both.
mrguyorama 3y ago
People always bring up that "90% of US prisons are public so it's not a private prison problem" but those public prisons all contract out things like food and communication and monitoring and anything else that's possible to private companies. Nobody should profit off of prison, period.
- ROTMetro 3y ago
  Don't forget the per minute charge to use kiosk computers to send electronic communication with family, or the pay to use phone app for family members to get those same communications. Or that you have to buy any medications sold in commissary from there and won't be given them at medical (which costs $5 a visit when you don't make $5 a month) like aspirin at the for profit commissary that buys from jacked up 'prison commissary' distributors and has a way shorter than what you buy in the store expiration date. Keep in mind you are not allowed to share 'medication' and that having expired 'medication' in your locker can be a shot (writeup, potential loss of good time, potential to have your security points increased and shipped to a higher security(i.e. less safe) prison).
  - ForOldHack 3y ago
    $5 a visit, when they are making $0.33 and hour...more than two days labor to pay it all for a doctor visit. "One of the biggest differences between the incarceration systems of Norway and the USA is that Norway does not have large, centralized jails. Instead, Norway utilizes a system of small, community-based correctional facilities that focus on rehabilitation and reintegration into society." "Norway's prison system houses approximately three thousand offenders. Norway's prison system is renowned as one of the most effective and humane in the world. Norway does not instate capital punishment or life imprisonment." Seems U.S.A. has cruel and unusual punishment for prison health.
- nickff 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - conscion 3y ago
cameldrv 3y ago
Having no contact with anyone except convicted criminals and prison guards for a long time has to change a person.
- teeray 3y ago
  “You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with” applies here
- hkt 3y ago
  I forget where the term comes from, but in some social science there's a conception of prisons as "universities of crime"
  - toomanyrichies 3y ago
    The 1995 film "Heat" refers to them as "gladiator academies". And there's a great Willem Dafoe film called about the US prison system called "Animal Factory".
- pie420 3y ago
  Now apply that logic to homeless people.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    We shouldn’t be putting homeless people in prison either. What’s your point?
    - maksimur 3y ago
      He probably meant something like "Having no contact with anyone except homeless people for a long time has to change a person."
swayvil 3y ago
99% of our movies involve "the good guy" beating down "the bad guy". It's some kind of deep-rooted psychological thing. Permanent pubescent power fantasies. Is it a plague of bad taste? A conspiracy to make everybody dumber?
- fnimick 3y ago
  My personal take is that it's a stress response in the US. Our society and economic system has evolved to put the vast majority of people one or two paychecks away from poverty. When you feel like your life is miserable, and you have no hope of improving it, it feels good to see righteous violence done to someone lesser.
  - swayvil 3y ago
    That's an interesting idea. Stress is a drug in this way. Affecting our emotions and how we see and think.
ldehaan 3y ago
[dead]
CobrastanJorji 3y ago
A similar example: educating prisoners reduces recidivism. Feels obvious, right? Education leads to jobs, jobs lead to money, money means less need to do crime. But then you get these "whaddya mean prisoners get free college but I have to pay, prison should be a punishment" takes, and so whenever one of these programs gets too effective and popular, it's liable to get killed. This is actually the first year Pell grants have been available to prisoners since it was banned 30 years ago.
- ipcress_file 3y ago
  I was at Millhaven, a maximum security institution in Ontario, a few years ago. The prisoners told me that only 10 of them could attend university courses at a time. The librarian confirmed it.
- pohuing 3y ago
  > But then you get these... They're not even wrong. But isn't the obvious answer to make higher education accessible to everyone, instead of just those with capital?!
  - Shawnj2 3y ago
    I think another obvious answer would be to make community college classes available to prisoners. In California (and other places) it’s very easy to get community college for free regardless of income level. Doing this more widely and offering people in prison CC classes for free means that this isn’t something “special” only people in prison get. You could even take a page out of Georgia Tech and similar universities’ books and offer prisoners online versions of classes with prerecorded materials + a TA with office hours and that they can email for questions to relatively cheaply deploy classes in prisons without needing to spend a professor’s time and without the security concerns of them entering the prison.
- amatecha 3y ago
  "whaddya mean prisoners get free college but I have to pay" When people say that shit (because they do), I respond: yeah, hahah, that's a good point isn't it? :) Why doesn't everyone get free college? :)
yodsanklai 3y ago
> I know there's an almost fetishistic worship of punishment in the US Another side of the US, the idea that everything has to be a business, in that case, charging prisoners to make phone calls.
qingcharles 3y ago
I spent 10 years in pretrial detention and 99% of the time there was zero to do except look at the walls. The system doesn't want to do anything to help you. You have to make your own re-education inside.
superchroma 3y ago
Exactly this.

Georgelemental 3y ago

The primary purpose of prisons is to keep criminals out of the streets and physically unable to re-offend. Punishment and/or rehabilitation are at most distant secondary considerations.

Tronno 3y ago
If that were true, then why do prison sentences have an end date?
- fnimick 3y ago
  A disturbing number of Americans would be very happy if they didn't. See: "tough on crime" winning elections everywhere, three strikes laws, mandatory minimums, and the surprisingly popular viewpoint even in relatively liberal areas that more crimes should face the death penalty. The last one is particularly eye-opening: when I point out that the death penalty costs the state more due to appeals, the response I frequently get is that the solution there is to make the death penalty easier to apply and block appeals on it. "Execute all drug dealers" and the like.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
7952 3y ago
It is a false dichotomy. We could have both.

mrguyorama 3y ago

People always bring up that "90% of US prisons are public so it's not a private prison problem" but those public prisons all contract out things like food and communication and monitoring and anything else that's possible to private companies. Nobody should profit off of prison, period.

ROTMetro 3y ago
Don't forget the per minute charge to use kiosk computers to send electronic communication with family, or the pay to use phone app for family members to get those same communications. Or that you have to buy any medications sold in commissary from there and won't be given them at medical (which costs $5 a visit when you don't make $5 a month) like aspirin at the for profit commissary that buys from jacked up 'prison commissary' distributors and has a way shorter than what you buy in the store expiration date. Keep in mind you are not allowed to share 'medication' and that having expired 'medication' in your locker can be a shot (writeup, potential loss of good time, potential to have your security points increased and shipped to a higher security(i.e. less safe) prison).
- ForOldHack 3y ago
  $5 a visit, when they are making $0.33 and hour...more than two days labor to pay it all for a doctor visit. "One of the biggest differences between the incarceration systems of Norway and the USA is that Norway does not have large, centralized jails. Instead, Norway utilizes a system of small, community-based correctional facilities that focus on rehabilitation and reintegration into society." "Norway's prison system houses approximately three thousand offenders. Norway's prison system is renowned as one of the most effective and humane in the world. Norway does not instate capital punishment or life imprisonment." Seems U.S.A. has cruel and unusual punishment for prison health.
nickff 3y ago
[flagged]
- conscion 3y ago

cameldrv 3y ago

Having no contact with anyone except convicted criminals and prison guards for a long time has to change a person.

teeray 3y ago
“You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with” applies here
hkt 3y ago
I forget where the term comes from, but in some social science there's a conception of prisons as "universities of crime"
- toomanyrichies 3y ago
  The 1995 film "Heat" refers to them as "gladiator academies". And there's a great Willem Dafoe film called about the US prison system called "Animal Factory".
pie420 3y ago
Now apply that logic to homeless people.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  We shouldn’t be putting homeless people in prison either. What’s your point?
  - maksimur 3y ago
    He probably meant something like "Having no contact with anyone except homeless people for a long time has to change a person."

swayvil 3y ago

99% of our movies involve "the good guy" beating down "the bad guy". It's some kind of deep-rooted psychological thing. Permanent pubescent power fantasies. Is it a plague of bad taste? A conspiracy to make everybody dumber?

fnimick 3y ago
My personal take is that it's a stress response in the US. Our society and economic system has evolved to put the vast majority of people one or two paychecks away from poverty. When you feel like your life is miserable, and you have no hope of improving it, it feels good to see righteous violence done to someone lesser.
- swayvil 3y ago
  That's an interesting idea. Stress is a drug in this way. Affecting our emotions and how we see and think.

ldehaan 3y ago

[dead]

CobrastanJorji 3y ago

A similar example: educating prisoners reduces recidivism. Feels obvious, right? Education leads to jobs, jobs lead to money, money means less need to do crime. But then you get these "whaddya mean prisoners get free college but I have to pay, prison should be a punishment" takes, and so whenever one of these programs gets too effective and popular, it's liable to get killed. This is actually the first year Pell grants have been available to prisoners since it was banned 30 years ago.

ipcress_file 3y ago
I was at Millhaven, a maximum security institution in Ontario, a few years ago. The prisoners told me that only 10 of them could attend university courses at a time. The librarian confirmed it.
pohuing 3y ago
> But then you get these... They're not even wrong. But isn't the obvious answer to make higher education accessible to everyone, instead of just those with capital?!
- Shawnj2 3y ago
  I think another obvious answer would be to make community college classes available to prisoners. In California (and other places) it’s very easy to get community college for free regardless of income level. Doing this more widely and offering people in prison CC classes for free means that this isn’t something “special” only people in prison get. You could even take a page out of Georgia Tech and similar universities’ books and offer prisoners online versions of classes with prerecorded materials + a TA with office hours and that they can email for questions to relatively cheaply deploy classes in prisons without needing to spend a professor’s time and without the security concerns of them entering the prison.
amatecha 3y ago
"whaddya mean prisoners get free college but I have to pay" When people say that shit (because they do), I respond: yeah, hahah, that's a good point isn't it? :) Why doesn't everyone get free college? :)

yodsanklai 3y ago

> I know there's an almost fetishistic worship of punishment in the US Another side of the US, the idea that everything has to be a business, in that case, charging prisoners to make phone calls.

qingcharles 3y ago

I spent 10 years in pretrial detention and 99% of the time there was zero to do except look at the walls. The system doesn't want to do anything to help you. You have to make your own re-education inside.

superchroma 3y ago

Exactly this.