5 ms·

I wonder if this doesn't have a lot to do with cars. In surrendering utterly to the preeminence of streets, we have essentially taken our open, free world and

by caesil 3y ago

I wonder if this doesn't have a lot to do with cars. In surrendering utterly to the preeminence of streets, we have essentially taken our open, free world and overlain it with an immense grid of electric fences -- thick lines all over the map that, if children wander across them, might easily lead to their deaths. So "hold hands everywhere" and "don't let your children run free outside" become the norms. The only safe place is locked inside or behind fences; the wider world is a death trap for children. Play inherently requires a degree of freedom, but children have none. We are just prison guards eternally transferring them from one captivity to another.

fallingknife 3y ago
No. It's paranoia. Cars have been around for a long time.
- pj_mukh 3y ago
  Is it paranoia? If it wasn’t for guns, cars would be the number killer of kids under 16. Note: This includes kids IN cars being ferried around from activity to activity. Granted the numbers are lower now than before but that’s because of various safety and traffic calming efforts. Seems like we should push harder on that front, so parents can feel safe encouraging their kids to just pop over to their friends place on their own.
  - jstarfish 3y ago
    It's paranoia. The pedophile panic of the last few decades led to nobody letting kids out of their sight. Things like the sex offender registry "help" but don't at the same time. It's not something I ever concerned myself with ("I know the stats, it's usually a relative!") until someone encouraged me to do it while closing on a house. I'm now acutely aware of the fact that there are dozens of child predators within a 1-mile radius of my home.
  - Tade0 3y ago
    According to this poll: https://reason.com/2014/08/19/august-2014-reason-rupe-national-survey/ https://reason.com/2014/08/19/august-2014-reason-rupe-nation... Americans are split regarding whether there should be a law requiring 12-year-olds be supervised when playing in a park - no cars there. As an European, to me this is absurd. At twelve I had a bus card and the privilege to go wherever, as long as I respected curfew.
    - pj_mukh 3y ago
      Well that's my point, the parents thinks its a dude in a white van to be scared off. But the numbers say its the actual white van going too fast on a four lane road (speed limit 45mph) next to the park. This isn't that much of a problem in older European cities.
      - Tade0 3y ago
        The city I grew up in was levelled by Nazis during WW2 and rebuilt to be car-centric. The OP said that everyone is walled off by cars so they have a mindset of controlling their children, lest they get run over. You're saying that they're actually afraid of kidnappers etc., while they should be of cars. To me these points are contradictory. In any case do you think removing cars will solve the problem? My guess is that no, because this mindset appeared decades after cars took over, and these things are actually not related.
        Atheros 3y ago
        If the cars caused the mindset then the mindset would necessarily be delayed by two generations because mindset and worldview changes require new humans.
  - fallingknife 3y ago
    If people felt safe at the higher numbers 50 years ago and don't at the lower numbers today, then the numbers aren't the issue.
- NegativeLatency 3y ago
  Cars as we know and use them have only been around for 100 years, which is very little time compared to say the evolution of the human brain.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    Kids needed to learn to look out for lions and snakes though.
- lapetitejort 3y ago
  Cars have been around for 100 years, but cars with grills taller than the average child going 60 down residential streets is somewhat new.
  - alexdbird 3y ago
    There are a lot more of them too, they're quieter, and there are more distractions inside for the driver.
- WaffleIronMaker 3y ago
  I would say that American car-centric development and distrust of others go hand in hand. The more people wall themselves away into their castles in the suburbs, the less they feel part of a community, and the more they distrust others.
  - cloverich 3y ago
    In theory I agree. But in practice, where I grew up, it was pure suburbia. I lived a few miles from school. No sidewalks, and roads very car centric. In elementary and Jr high I used to bike to school, regularly, and I don't remember it being abnormal; I remember a lot of kids doing it. I remember my dad commenting on it being weird that there was a crossing guard we had to wait for on our school corner (which crossed a 4 lane busy-ish street) on one of the rare days where he picked us up in his car. I think a big part of this is just our risk tolerances change. We naturally want to protect kids, and looking historically we've taken safety to relative extremes compare to 20 years ago (and similarly before then). Its natural to want more security, and its obvious how it helps. But its not as obvious what we've given up in return. Interestingly, I moved to Portland recently, and live mid way between suburbs and downtown; its fairly dense but mostly SFH or townhomes in my neighborhood, many businesses, some homeless. Kids of all ages walk to school and are... just everywhere, around here. Its quite normal to see people walking with their kids too. Its just got a really great mix of urban density -- you can walk to stores, bars, school. There's a few high traffic streets, but they are not large and the speed limit is 20mph. I think what this neighborhood has taught me is, while our risk tolerances are lower than ever, its still a bit of a design and culture choice to not let kids walk around. Its nice to see here, in Portland of all places, there's a bit of a counter trend going on. I hope its what the future looks like in other places (here and elsewhere) too.
bluGill 3y ago
Not really. Cars don't help, but even when it is a safe, kids are not allowed on their own.
pj_mukh 3y ago
Absolutely, and America has double problem where denser neighborhoods are seen as unsafe due to crime. And less dense neighborhoods means kids can’t go anywhere without having an adult drive them. So kids are stuck at home, miles from a playmate.
alexpetralia 3y ago
Routinely in New York City at least, you can kill someone using a motor vehicle almost with complete impunity. The driver who led to Sammy's Law (which still hasn't passed) only received a 180 day license suspension a year and a half after the accident, even though he sped past a stopped vehicle on the righthand side (the vehicle had stopped for the child). Death by car is often considered acceptable. There is really no disincentive to dangerous driving, to say nothing of the preeminence of driving more generally.
- throwaway-243 3y ago
  7,485 pedestrians were killed by cars in the whole of the US in 2021. this is a great example of where whataboutism is not a logical fallacy. i mean what is your solution? ban all driving? sure, but give me a proper public transport network that can supply the suburbs and rural areas. fix urban cost of living while you're at it.
  - uoaei 3y ago
    2021 is obviously an outlier in terms of driving and walking. Can't quite tell what point you're making but your example is not representative.
  - ecshafer 3y ago
    Remove zoning restrictions is step 1 to allow denser more walkable areas, which will reduce urban cost of living. Step 2 is to change the highway code to make stroads illegal and make more normal safe roads. Step 3 is change the fha rules so more dense homes are built. Step 4 change cafe standards so smaller lighter cars are the norm, possibly tax suvs and trucks. These are all stroke of a pen changes.
    - Tade0 3y ago
      > These are all stroke of a pen changes. In a democracy you need buy-in from society at large. What's the plan on achieving that?
elibailey 3y ago
I agree, and not just because busy streets are unsafe for kids. Neighborhood != community. Imo with: - Lack of interesting nearby spaces - poor walking options (unsafe, unpopulated, unshaded) - poor transit options - growing options online - polarization Families are less likely to spend leisure or errand time in/near their neighborhoods. And kids suffer for that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes
moffkalast 3y ago
Cars do make it worse, but probably aren't what it all stems from. As an example, I lived a 5 min walk away from the primary school I was attending and wasn't allowed to make the trip on my own for years. They gave me a payphone card and I had to call one of my parents to come and walk me back. Helicopter parents don't let things like logic and convenience get in the way of taking every atom of independence from their kids. It may also have something to do with trust. Nobody trusts their kids with anything these days anymore and then they expect them to somehow grow up capable of taking responsibility? Like, how?

by caesil 3y ago

fallingknife 3y ago

No. It's paranoia. Cars have been around for a long time.

pj_mukh 3y ago
Is it paranoia? If it wasn’t for guns, cars would be the number killer of kids under 16. Note: This includes kids IN cars being ferried around from activity to activity. Granted the numbers are lower now than before but that’s because of various safety and traffic calming efforts. Seems like we should push harder on that front, so parents can feel safe encouraging their kids to just pop over to their friends place on their own.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  It's paranoia. The pedophile panic of the last few decades led to nobody letting kids out of their sight. Things like the sex offender registry "help" but don't at the same time. It's not something I ever concerned myself with ("I know the stats, it's usually a relative!") until someone encouraged me to do it while closing on a house. I'm now acutely aware of the fact that there are dozens of child predators within a 1-mile radius of my home.
- Tade0 3y ago
  According to this poll: https://reason.com/2014/08/19/august-2014-reason-rupe-national-survey/ https://reason.com/2014/08/19/august-2014-reason-rupe-nation... Americans are split regarding whether there should be a law requiring 12-year-olds be supervised when playing in a park - no cars there. As an European, to me this is absurd. At twelve I had a bus card and the privilege to go wherever, as long as I respected curfew.
  - pj_mukh 3y ago
    Well that's my point, the parents thinks its a dude in a white van to be scared off. But the numbers say its the actual white van going too fast on a four lane road (speed limit 45mph) next to the park. This isn't that much of a problem in older European cities.
    - Tade0 3y ago
      The city I grew up in was levelled by Nazis during WW2 and rebuilt to be car-centric. The OP said that everyone is walled off by cars so they have a mindset of controlling their children, lest they get run over. You're saying that they're actually afraid of kidnappers etc., while they should be of cars. To me these points are contradictory. In any case do you think removing cars will solve the problem? My guess is that no, because this mindset appeared decades after cars took over, and these things are actually not related.
      - Atheros 3y ago
        If the cars caused the mindset then the mindset would necessarily be delayed by two generations because mindset and worldview changes require new humans.
- fallingknife 3y ago
  If people felt safe at the higher numbers 50 years ago and don't at the lower numbers today, then the numbers aren't the issue.
NegativeLatency 3y ago
Cars as we know and use them have only been around for 100 years, which is very little time compared to say the evolution of the human brain.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  Kids needed to learn to look out for lions and snakes though.
lapetitejort 3y ago
Cars have been around for 100 years, but cars with grills taller than the average child going 60 down residential streets is somewhat new.
- alexdbird 3y ago
  There are a lot more of them too, they're quieter, and there are more distractions inside for the driver.
WaffleIronMaker 3y ago
I would say that American car-centric development and distrust of others go hand in hand. The more people wall themselves away into their castles in the suburbs, the less they feel part of a community, and the more they distrust others.
- cloverich 3y ago
  In theory I agree. But in practice, where I grew up, it was pure suburbia. I lived a few miles from school. No sidewalks, and roads very car centric. In elementary and Jr high I used to bike to school, regularly, and I don't remember it being abnormal; I remember a lot of kids doing it. I remember my dad commenting on it being weird that there was a crossing guard we had to wait for on our school corner (which crossed a 4 lane busy-ish street) on one of the rare days where he picked us up in his car. I think a big part of this is just our risk tolerances change. We naturally want to protect kids, and looking historically we've taken safety to relative extremes compare to 20 years ago (and similarly before then). Its natural to want more security, and its obvious how it helps. But its not as obvious what we've given up in return. Interestingly, I moved to Portland recently, and live mid way between suburbs and downtown; its fairly dense but mostly SFH or townhomes in my neighborhood, many businesses, some homeless. Kids of all ages walk to school and are... just everywhere, around here. Its quite normal to see people walking with their kids too. Its just got a really great mix of urban density -- you can walk to stores, bars, school. There's a few high traffic streets, but they are not large and the speed limit is 20mph. I think what this neighborhood has taught me is, while our risk tolerances are lower than ever, its still a bit of a design and culture choice to not let kids walk around. Its nice to see here, in Portland of all places, there's a bit of a counter trend going on. I hope its what the future looks like in other places (here and elsewhere) too.

bluGill 3y ago

Not really. Cars don't help, but even when it is a safe, kids are not allowed on their own.

pj_mukh 3y ago

Absolutely, and America has double problem where denser neighborhoods are seen as unsafe due to crime. And less dense neighborhoods means kids can’t go anywhere without having an adult drive them. So kids are stuck at home, miles from a playmate.

alexpetralia 3y ago

Routinely in New York City at least, you can kill someone using a motor vehicle almost with complete impunity. The driver who led to Sammy's Law (which still hasn't passed) only received a 180 day license suspension a year and a half after the accident, even though he sped past a stopped vehicle on the righthand side (the vehicle had stopped for the child). Death by car is often considered acceptable. There is really no disincentive to dangerous driving, to say nothing of the preeminence of driving more generally.

throwaway-243 3y ago
7,485 pedestrians were killed by cars in the whole of the US in 2021. this is a great example of where whataboutism is not a logical fallacy. i mean what is your solution? ban all driving? sure, but give me a proper public transport network that can supply the suburbs and rural areas. fix urban cost of living while you're at it.
- uoaei 3y ago
  2021 is obviously an outlier in terms of driving and walking. Can't quite tell what point you're making but your example is not representative.
- ecshafer 3y ago
  Remove zoning restrictions is step 1 to allow denser more walkable areas, which will reduce urban cost of living. Step 2 is to change the highway code to make stroads illegal and make more normal safe roads. Step 3 is change the fha rules so more dense homes are built. Step 4 change cafe standards so smaller lighter cars are the norm, possibly tax suvs and trucks. These are all stroke of a pen changes.
  - Tade0 3y ago
    > These are all stroke of a pen changes. In a democracy you need buy-in from society at large. What's the plan on achieving that?

elibailey 3y ago

I agree, and not just because busy streets are unsafe for kids. Neighborhood != community. Imo with: - Lack of interesting nearby spaces - poor walking options (unsafe, unpopulated, unshaded) - poor transit options - growing options online - polarization Families are less likely to spend leisure or errand time in/near their neighborhoods. And kids suffer for that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes

moffkalast 3y ago

Cars do make it worse, but probably aren't what it all stems from. As an example, I lived a 5 min walk away from the primary school I was attending and wasn't allowed to make the trip on my own for years. They gave me a payphone card and I had to call one of my parents to come and walk me back. Helicopter parents don't let things like logic and convenience get in the way of taking every atom of independence from their kids. It may also have something to do with trust. Nobody trusts their kids with anything these days anymore and then they expect them to somehow grow up capable of taking responsibility? Like, how?