2 ms·

Can we all just take a moment to laugh at the fact that all of this complexity is, roughly speaking, the evolution of AUTOEXEC.BAT? (Pedants: I know AUTOEXEC.B

Can we all just take a moment to laugh at the fact that all of this complexity is, roughly speaking, the evolution of AUTOEXEC.BAT? (Pedants: I know AUTOEXEC.BAT not a direct ancestor of systemd, but it's a close cousin and serves the same purpose: run stuff when you boot.)

taf2 3y ago
I want my cake and it to boot fast too.
- TacticalCoder 3y ago
  I saw that very often but I run a very lean Devuan (a Debian fork without systemd) and it boots ultra-fast too. Machines and especially SSDs have gone a long way since ten years ago and people think Linux boots fast "thanks to systemd"... But I'd encourage these people to install Devuan just to give it a try. It may boot a tiny bit slower than Debian (for an identical system) but it's still very quick. Put it in another way: the savings systemd did brought regarding booting times in 2015 aren't looking anywhere near as impressive today. I don't even know: on my 7700X I think from boot (since the moment I enter the disk decryption password) to (text mode) login prompt it take about a second under Debian (systemd)? Maybe it takes 1.5 seconds running Devuan (non-systemd)? I mean: 20 seconds instead of 45 seconds may have seen like a bit saving in 2015 but 1 second vs 1.5 second, I don't give a rat's arse. And people who really need super fast boot times in containers shall use Alpine without systemd anyway.
johnday 3y ago
That's not really fair. systemd does a lot more, and with good reason (among other reasons: there are many, many economies that can be made when "booting" and "managing" services happens in the same hat)
- javajosh 3y ago
  >That's not really fair Uh, what? It's not fair to say that a vastly more complicated thing evolved from a simple thing? That's how it always happens - each step seems reasonable, and justified, but you look at what those countless rational decisions added up to, and bam. That's the complexity everyone says they hate. In technology, in government, in basically everything. (Oddly, culture seems to be okay deprecating old bits of culture; the brain is inherently finite so we run in cycles and epicycles of cultural fashion that remains roughly at the same level of complexity.)
  - bananapub 3y ago
    what a weird take - the "complexity" of sysv has to include the random shell scripts people write for /etc/init.d of hugely variable quality, and the tooling like start-stop-daemon, and the administrative complexity of not actually being able to reliably shut down (needs a process group) or start up service (needs dependencies). it is much simpler for some people to write a dependency-based init system and then for my OS to write dependencies for the OS services then for me to say "DependsOn = network.service" to permanently avoid racing dhcp or whatever.
op00to 3y ago
COMMAND.COM is a far more closer “relative” to SystemD than AUTOEXEC.BAT.
MikusR 3y ago
AUTOEXEC.BAT is same thing as a sysvinit script.
bravetraveler 3y ago
Turns out launching something isn't enough, these days - interdependence, and all. Took some decades to collectively get tired enough to decide on a language to declare it

taf2 3y ago

I want my cake and it to boot fast too.

TacticalCoder 3y ago
I saw that very often but I run a very lean Devuan (a Debian fork without systemd) and it boots ultra-fast too. Machines and especially SSDs have gone a long way since ten years ago and people think Linux boots fast "thanks to systemd"... But I'd encourage these people to install Devuan just to give it a try. It may boot a tiny bit slower than Debian (for an identical system) but it's still very quick. Put it in another way: the savings systemd did brought regarding booting times in 2015 aren't looking anywhere near as impressive today. I don't even know: on my 7700X I think from boot (since the moment I enter the disk decryption password) to (text mode) login prompt it take about a second under Debian (systemd)? Maybe it takes 1.5 seconds running Devuan (non-systemd)? I mean: 20 seconds instead of 45 seconds may have seen like a bit saving in 2015 but 1 second vs 1.5 second, I don't give a rat's arse. And people who really need super fast boot times in containers shall use Alpine without systemd anyway.

johnday 3y ago

That's not really fair. systemd does a lot more, and with good reason (among other reasons: there are many, many economies that can be made when "booting" and "managing" services happens in the same hat)

javajosh 3y ago
>That's not really fair Uh, what? It's not fair to say that a vastly more complicated thing evolved from a simple thing? That's how it always happens - each step seems reasonable, and justified, but you look at what those countless rational decisions added up to, and bam. That's the complexity everyone says they hate. In technology, in government, in basically everything. (Oddly, culture seems to be okay deprecating old bits of culture; the brain is inherently finite so we run in cycles and epicycles of cultural fashion that remains roughly at the same level of complexity.)
- bananapub 3y ago
  what a weird take - the "complexity" of sysv has to include the random shell scripts people write for /etc/init.d of hugely variable quality, and the tooling like start-stop-daemon, and the administrative complexity of not actually being able to reliably shut down (needs a process group) or start up service (needs dependencies). it is much simpler for some people to write a dependency-based init system and then for my OS to write dependencies for the OS services then for me to say "DependsOn = network.service" to permanently avoid racing dhcp or whatever.

op00to 3y ago

COMMAND.COM is a far more closer “relative” to SystemD than AUTOEXEC.BAT.

MikusR 3y ago

AUTOEXEC.BAT is same thing as a sysvinit script.

bravetraveler 3y ago

Turns out launching something isn't enough, these days - interdependence, and all. Took some decades to collectively get tired enough to decide on a language to declare it